[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Fwd: What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa vR^itti?

[Venkatraghavan S]

Sri Gurubhyo Namah.

The latest class of VichAra SAgara by Swami Paramarthananda dealt with the
very same issue.

In context of defining pramA, it was mentioned that pramA is classified as
an antah karaNa vritti having the antah karaNa or pramAtA as Ashraya. Then
when the question of whether smriti is pramA or not was considered.

Here Nishchala DAsA's conclusion was that smriti was not pramA (antah
karaNa vritti) and as it was in fact present in kAraNa sharIra or avidyA
and had its locus as the sAkshI, it was an avidyA vritti.

Other forms of avidyA vritti, ie vrittis that were present in kAraNa
sharIra were bhrAnti and samshayA, all having sAkshi as their locus.

So while a formal definition of antah karaNa vritti and avidyA vritti
wasn't given in this context, where they are located (antah karaNa vs
kAraNa sharIra) and what type of knowledge they represent (pramA vs
smriti/bhrAnti/samshayA) were discussed as the distinguishing
characteristics of the two vrittis.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan
On 28 Jul 2015 08:33, "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
> vR^itti?
> To: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>
>
> Sri Sadananda Ji,
>
> Basically the discussion so far pertained to what is presented in Vedanta
> Paribhasha and Advaita Sidhi. Very different from what you have considered
> here. I may be wrong.
>
> Pranams and Regards
>
> Chandramouli
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > PraNAms
> >
> > Just for some thought,  but not to confuse.
> >
> > There are several aspects involved - pramaa vs bhramaa, smRiti and
> > perception, and whether smRiti comes under separate pramaana. Anandaji
> also
> > brought in - the internal perceptions - such as emotions- anger,
> happiness,
> > or certain moods of the mind.
> >
> > Looking from a rational point - The perception for the first time (I
> think
> > V. Advaita - classifies as indeterminate - not sure about tarkikaas)
> there
> > is no role  of smRiti. and no jaati also here. When a child sees a cow
> for
> > the first time, a white cow, and mother says - my dear this is a cow- now
> > the cognition of cow and knowledge of the cognition as cow, as supported
> by
> > aapta vaakya follows - otherwise just cognition of an object without a
> > name.  Here pramaa and pramaata are involved at antaHkarana level. From
> my
> > point, all cognitions are attributive in the sense that senses can only
> > gather (reflective) attributes of the object perceived since original
> > attributes are inseparable from their locus - and vishaya - the cow
> remains
> > fortunately outside!
> >
> > The first cognition forms a memory sometimes being referred to as
> > samskaara or vaasaana, hence part of kaaraNa shareera - this may be
> called
> > as avidyaa vRitti.
> >
> > When the child sees another cow which is black, and the mother says this
> > is also cow, - cognition, recognition as well as instincts of jaati are
> > coming into play.
> >
> > Hence even in perception for the second time on - smRiti is coming into
> > picture in recognition part. Hence perception involves both cognition and
> > recognition to some extent or memory is playing a role in the knowledge.
> > Hence avidhyaa vRitti or vaasana samskaara coming in the recognition
> > process and not a cognitive level.Hence we have both antaHkarana vRitti
> and
> > avidyaa vRitti due to vaasanaas or samskaara or memory.
> >
> > In the sRiti alone without cognition - as someone remembering a cow -
> then
> > there is no cognition but only internal perception - if we call this as
> > perception.
> >
> > Bhranti comes when the cognition is incomplete (since cognition is mostly
> > attributive and attributives are incomplete due to absence of required
> > secondary conditions such as light etc) and smRitti say snake while
> seeing
> > a rope.
> >
> > smRiti is some have classified as antaHkarana vRitti while some others as
> > avidya or kaarNa shareera vRitit.
> >
> > With jaati only the general attribute say cowness of the cow comes into
> > picture - this happens only after second perhaps reinforced
> > cognition-recognition cycle.
> >
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Mon, 7/27/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >  Subject: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as
> > against     antaHkaraNa     vR^itti?
> >  To: "Anand Hudli" <anandhudli at hotmail.com>, "A discussion group for
> > Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >  Date: Monday, July 27, 2015, 11:32 PM
> >
> >  Dear  Sri Anand Ji,
> >
> >  Is not sopadika bhranti (
> >  सोपाधिक भ्रान्ति ) considered
> >  avidya vritti ,
> >  even though it can be
> >  classified as objective knowledge ? Please clarify.
> >
> >  Regards and Pranams
> >
> >  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:10
> >  PM, Anand Hudli via Advaita-l <
> >  advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  > An attempt to
> >  answer some questions.
> >  > The difference
> >  between objective knowledge and subjective knowledge lies
> >  in
> >  > the capability of the former type of
> >  knowledge to be *directly*
> >  >
> >  (aparokSheNa) conveyed or used in dealings (vyavahAra) with
> >  people other
> >  > than the person who has
> >  this knowledge. For example, if you see a pot, you
> >  > may point it out to others, "this is
> >  a pot", and they too will have the
> >  >
> >  same direct perception of the pot. On the other hand, if you
> >  feel happy,
> >  > you cannot *directly*
> >  convey this feeling to me. There is no way for me to
> >  > *directly* feel what you are feeling. You
> >  may express your feeling with
> >  > some act,
> >  words, etc. that allows me to understand your feeling, but
> >  this
> >  > only gives me an *indirect*
> >  knowledge. Coming to illusions such as a
> >  > silver-nacre, the advaitasiddhi holds that
> >  two cognitions are involved
> >  > here. In
> >  the (erroneous) cognition, "this is silver", the
> >  "this" (idam)
> >  > part is
> >  objective, but the "silver" (rajatam) part is
> >  subjective. Why? When
> >  > a person seeing
> >  illusory silver says, "this is silver", another
> >  person in
> >  > the vicinity will certainly
> >  see some object as the first person did, but
> >  > he/she may not see the object as silver.
> >  It is possible the second person
> >  > is not
> >  affected by the illusion, and may, in fact, see the nacre,
> >  not
> >  > silver. So the agreement between
> >  the first person and the second person is
> >  > that there is "something" out
> >  there. The knowledge of "something" is
> >  > objective and is common to both persons.
> >  However, the knowledge of "silver"
> >  > is restricted to the first person who is
> >  affected by the illusion. The
> >  > second
> >  person may have the knowledge of nacre, not silver. This is
> >  why it
> >  > is said avidyAvRtti can be
> >  prAtibhAsika or vyAvahArika.
> >  > If we look
> >  "under the hood" and try to understand what is
> >  anataHkaraNa
> >  > vRtti and what is
> >  avidyAvRtti, it is important to note that objective
> >  > knowledge, called "pramA", is
> >  gained through a pramANa (means of knowledge,
> >  > such as perception, inference, scriptures,
> >  etc), while subjective
> >  > knowledge,
> >  including the prAtibhAsika type, is not so obtained. In the
> >  case
> >  > of subjective knowledge, the
> >  witness-consciousness (sAkShicaitanya)
> >  >
> >  cognizes it without the need for antaHkaraNavRtti.  In
> >  contrast, objective
> >  > knowledge gained
> >  through a pramANa results in the modification of the
> >  > antaHkaraNa (mind), called
> >  antaHkaraNavRtti. MahamahopAdhyAya Abhyankar has
> >  > remarked in his commentary on the
> >  siddhAntabindu (dashashlokI):
> >  >
> >  apramAjnAnaM na manovRttirUpaM kiMtu avidyAvRttirUpaM
> >  sAkShyAshrayam.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Anand
> >  >
> >  _______________________________________________
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