[Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

[H S Chandramouli]

Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,


 Regarding your observation


 << But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later
Advaitis. >> ,


 it is no doubt true. In fact what I had mentioned in my post was based on
one of the schools of thought elaborating on the Bhashyam. There are other
schools of thought as well. But to answer your main question without
getting into these alternate schools of thought I recap your question here
again.


 << If the earlier
covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can the second
Ignorance - Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja says
Advaitis say the Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I must not see the pot. >> .


 Covering Ignorance, second Ignorance - Adhyasa , Pot ( using your
terminology ) can all be considered as products of one and the same Avidya
, akin to several crystals of salt and the Ocean itself. ( All the salt
crystals are products of one and the same Ocean water only ) . There is
nothing like first Ignorance, second Ignorance etc. Destruction of one or
more of the salt crystals has no effect on the other crystals or the Ocean
itself. Thus the view of Sri Vadiraja , as stated by you , has no validity.


 Regards



On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste
>
> Many thanks and Pranams to Sri Chandramouli and Sri Venkataraghavan
> for explaining so nicely and it is like Lord Siva Chandramouleeshwara
> and Lord Vishnu Venkataraghava both have cleared my doubt. A brief
> answer may be given.
>
> Brahman is the Ashraya for मूलाविद्या the Root Ignorance. If we have
> to know Brahman the मूलाविद्या must be removed. Then we know Brahman.
> Similarly any object like Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या the Modal
> Ignorance. If we have to know Pot the तूलाविद्या must be removed. When
> we see a Pot the तूलाविद्या  'Veil of Ignorance' gets destroyed by Pot
> Vrtti and we know the pot. But the Pot Adhyaasa is still there. It is
> not destroyed. Why? Because the मूलाविद्या is not destroyed. It is the
> Material Cause for the Adhyaasa of pot and all objects in the world.
> Unless and until the मूलाविद्या is destroyed the Adhyaasa will not be
> destroyed. Sravana, Manana and Nididhyaasana are required to destroy
> मूलाविद्या.
>
> But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
> Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later
> Advaitis.
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Great explanation, Sri Chandramouli.
> >
> > To add to what you have said: Whenever an object such as pot, etc is
> > perceived, that object is pervaded by the perceiver's thought or vritti.
> > This vritti pervasion (vyApti) is  the remover of the veil of ignorance
> > about the object. However, vritti being jadam, it cannot illuminate the
> > object, which in the case of most objects are jadam too and therefore
> need
> > illumination. The thing to note here is that vritti vyApti can only
> remove
> > the veil of ignorance over the object. Object illumination requires
> > something else.
> >
> > As we know, the mind reflects the sakshi chaitanyam or pure
> consciousness,
> > as chidAbhAsa, or reflected consciousness. The chidAbhAsA is present
> > whenever the mind is present, and as the mind consists of thoughts, the
> > chidAbhAsa is present automatically in every thought too.
> >
> > When thoughts pervade the object, the chidAbhAsa that is present in the
> > thought also automatically pervades the object. The chidAbhAsa, in the
> > context of knowledge, is also referred to as phalam. Therefore chidAbhAsa
> > pervasion or phala vyApti also automatically takes place whenever
> perception
> > takes place. The phalam, which is of the nature of consciousness, when
> > pervading the object is the thing which causes the illumination of the
> > object, and not vritti, which is jadam.
> >
> > To summarise, vritti vyApti removes ignorance and phala vyApti creates
> > illumination. Every knowledge of an object therefore requires three
> things -
> > the object, vritti vyApti and phala vyApti.
> >
> > Coming to Sri VAdirAja, his claim that the removal of the veil of
> ignorance
> > over the pot should also remove the pot adhyAsA does not have merit.
> Vritti
> > vyApti can only remove the ignorance of the object over which the vritti
> is
> > pervaded. So when perceiving a pot, vritti vyApti on the pot can only
> remove
> > ignorance of the pot, not a cow that is not an object of perception at
> the
> > time.
> >
> > Similarly, and this is the crucial bit of the argument, during the
> > perception of a pot, the avidya that covers the pot is the only thing
> that
> > is removed, and not the avidya that covers the upahita chaitanyam that is
> > enclosed by the pot.
> >
> > Therefore in the perception of a pot, pot adhyAsa is not removed - the
> pot
> > doesn't disappear. Then what about a gyAni who perceives Brahman
> everywhere?
> > Does the pot disappear for him?
> >
> > In the case of a gyAni, the perception process is different. The gyAni
> > perceives both the pot and the upahita chaitanyam in the pot. The latter
> > perception is in the form of the thought - "I am the chaitanyam that is
> > enclosed in the pot too". This is the vritti vyApti that removes the
> > ignorance over the upahita chaitanyam or Brahman.
> >
> > ChidAbhAsa is present in this Brahman-knowledge-vritti too, however, no
> > illumination is required by chidAbhAsa for knowledge of Brahman - because
> > the Brahman is self effulgent. The very illumining power of chidAbhAsa is
> > sourced from Brahman. Therefore, phala vyApti has no role in the
> knowledge
> > of Brahman.
> >
> > To summarize, two vritti vyAptis take place for the gyAni - vritti
> vyApti of
> > the pot, and vritti vyApti of the upahita chaitanyam of the pot.  Each of
> > these vritti vyApti remove knowledge of the respective items being
> pervaded
> > by the vritti, viz., pot and upahita chaitanyam, or Brahman.
> >
> > As the phala vyApti of the pot takes place for a gyAni too, he has all
> three
> > things required for the knowledge of the pot - the object (pot), vritti
> > vyApti over the pot, and the phala vyApti over the pot.
> >
> > However, while a gyAni continues seeing the pot,  because the avidyA
> AvaraNA
> > over the upahita chaitanyam is removed by his mind's Brahman knowlede
> > vritti, he knows that the pot is simply mithya, and the upahita
> chaitanyam
> > that is enclosed in the mithya is himself, the only satyam.
> >
> > Sri Venkatesh Murthy - I hope this hasn't confused matters. Sorry for the
> > long mail.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Venkatraghavan S
> >
> > On 10 Jun 2015 08:34, "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l"
> > <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
> >>
> >>
> >>  At the location of the object, the Avidya associated with Consciousness
> >> appears as the object and hence is termed the material cause of the
> >> object.
> >> This is Adhyasa. This object encloses the General Consciousness (
> Samanya
> >> Chaitanya ) as well which then is termed Specific Consciousness (
> Vishesha
> >> Chaitanya ) . This Vishesha Chaitanya itself is associated with Avidya
> >> also
> >> which is termed Toola Avidya ( तूलाविद्या ) . When you say
> >>
> >>
> >>  << When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
> >> can see the pot. >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  it is this Toola Avidya ( तूलाविद्या ) located in the Chaitanya
> enclosed
> >> by the pot which is neutralized by the Mental Vritti and not the Avidya
> >> associated with the projection of the pot itself ( which is Adhyasa )
> >> which
> >> is the material cause of the pot. Thus there is no contradiction .
> >>
> >> It should however be clarified that the two Avidyas  are not entirely
> >> different or independant of each other. Avidya is one only. But for
> >> purposes of analysis they are given different names to clarify the
> >> different roles played under different circumstances. There is only one
> >> all
> >> pervading Consciousness and only one Avidya associated with it. Wherever
> >> Consciousness is considered Avidya also is to be automatically
> construed.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Namo Vidvadbhyaha
> >> >
> >> > I am having difficulty analysing one Vaadiraaja's argument in
> >> > Nyayaratnavali. All the objects are covered by Ignorance before we see
> >> > them. When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
> >> > can see the pot. Some books are calling this 'Veil of Ignorance' But
> >> > Advaitis will also say the pot is a Superimposition - Adhyaasa on
> >> > Brahman. But this Adhyaasa is also Ignorance only. If the earlier
> >> > covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can the second
> >> > Ignorance - Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
> >> > destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja says
> >> > Advaitis say the Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
> >> > Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I must not see the pot.
> >> >
> >> > There is a contradiction in Vaadiraaja's opinion. I have to solve this
> >> > contradiction.
> >> >
> >> > I have a firm belief there is a solution in Advaita but I dont know
> >> > it. Kindly inform me if there is a solution. I know some people
> >> > knowing the solution but they are not available to answer my question
> >> > now.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > -Venkatesh
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> >> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >> >
> >> > For assistance, contact:
> >> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> >> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >>
> >> For assistance, contact:
> >> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> -Venkatesh
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>