[Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

[sreenivasa murthy]

Dear Sri Sadnanda,
    I request you to clarify in what sense you have used the word "knowledge" in the sentence "removing the obstacles covering the knowledge". Who illumines the existence of the obstacles?Who is the remover of the obstacle? These questions arose in when going through your reply. As a scientist, have you cognized the existence of these two kinds of ignorance?As a self-evident, self-evident principle I am not aware of these two kinds of avidyas. Will you please help me in cognizing these two avidyas in my anuBava. I KNOW that I do not know. This is in my anuBava. To which category of avidya doe it belong to? Please help me in understanding your statements so that I can start doing sadhana to get rid of the two avidyas.
 A statement can never be established as a fact by giving an analogy. It has to be shown as a fact in one's own anuBava or life.
With respectful pranams,Sreenivasa Murthy
       From: kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 To: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, 11 June 2015 5:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis
   
PraNAms

Jast a note: 

For tula avidya there is jnaana VRitti and phala vRitti while for muula avidya, there is jnana vRitti but no phala vRitti, since self knowledge is self-revealing and not a product of some Vritti. Jnana vRitti is required to remove the obstacles covering the knowledge. Sureswara provide a beautiful example to illustrate this.

In a pitch dark room one cannot see anything. To see anything a light (say torch light ) is needed. As I focus the light on each object, each object gets revealed - that is jnana vRitti to reveal the object and phala is result of the knowledge of the object. 

In the process I see a pot upside down. To see the pot I need the torch light. Out of curiosity, I lift the pot to see what is inside. I find a candle burning there. Now do I need the torch light to see the burning candle? Same thing applies to muula avidya. I need vedanta shastra jnaanam for removing the obstacles covering the knowledge. However there is no phala vRitti since what is discovered is what has been evident all the time. 

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/11/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis
 To: "Venkatesh Murthy" <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015, 2:35 AM
 
 Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy
 ji,
 
 
 
 Regarding your observation
 
 
  << But the words
 मूलाविद्या and
 तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
 Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were
 explained by later
 Advaitis. >> ,
 
 
  it is no
 doubt true. In fact what I had mentioned in my post was
 based on
 one of the schools of thought
 elaborating on the Bhashyam. There are other
 schools of thought as well. But to answer your
 main question without
 getting into these
 alternate schools of thought I recap your question here
 again.
 
 
  << If the earlier
 covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the
 pot how can the second
 Ignorance - Adhyaasa
 arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
 destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise.
 Because Vaadiraaja says
 Advaitis say the
 Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
 Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I
 must not see the pot. >> .
 
 
  Covering Ignorance, second
 Ignorance - Adhyasa , Pot ( using your
 terminology ) can all be considered as products
 of one and the same Avidya
 , akin to several
 crystals of salt and the Ocean itself. ( All the salt
 crystals are products of one and the same Ocean
 water only ) . There is
 nothing like first
 Ignorance, second Ignorance etc. Destruction of one or
 more of the salt crystals has no effect on the
 other crystals or the Ocean
 itself. Thus the
 view of Sri Vadiraja , as stated by you , has no
 validity.
 
 
 
 Regards
 
 
 
 On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:33
 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
 advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 
 > Namaste
 >
 > Many thanks and
 Pranams to Sri Chandramouli and Sri Venkataraghavan
 > for explaining so nicely and it is like
 Lord Siva Chandramouleeshwara
 > and Lord
 Vishnu Venkataraghava both have cleared my doubt. A brief
 > answer may be given.
 >
 > Brahman is the
 Ashraya for मूलाविद्या the Root
 Ignorance. If we have
 > to know Brahman
 the मूलाविद्या must be removed. Then we
 know Brahman.
 > Similarly any object like
 Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या the
 Modal
 > Ignorance. If we have to know Pot
 the तूलाविद्या must be removed. When
 > we see a Pot the
 तूलाविद्या  'Veil of Ignorance'
 gets destroyed by Pot
 > Vrtti and we know
 the pot. But the Pot Adhyaasa is still there. It is
 > not destroyed. Why? Because the
 मूलाविद्या is not destroyed. It is
 the
 > Material Cause for the Adhyaasa of
 pot and all objects in the world.
 >
 Unless and until the मूलाविद्या is
 destroyed the Adhyaasa will not be
 >
 destroyed. Sravana, Manana and Nididhyaasana are required to
 destroy
 >
 मूलाविद्या.
 >
 > But the words
 मूलाविद्या and
 तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
 > Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were
 explained by later
 > Advaitis.
 >
 > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015
 at 3:07 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
 > wrote:
 > > Great
 explanation, Sri Chandramouli.
 > >
 > > To add to what you have said:
 Whenever an object such as pot, etc is
 >
 > perceived, that object is pervaded by the
 perceiver's thought or vritti.
 > >
 This vritti pervasion (vyApti) is  the remover of the veil
 of ignorance
 > > about the object.
 However, vritti being jadam, it cannot illuminate the
 > > object, which in the case of most
 objects are jadam too and therefore
 >
 need
 > > illumination. The thing to
 note here is that vritti vyApti can only
 > remove
 > > the veil
 of ignorance over the object. Object illumination
 requires
 > > something else.
 > >
 > > As we know,
 the mind reflects the sakshi chaitanyam or pure
 > consciousness,
 > >
 as chidAbhAsa, or reflected consciousness. The chidAbhAsA is
 present
 > > whenever the mind is
 present, and as the mind consists of thoughts, the
 > > chidAbhAsa is present automatically
 in every thought too.
 > >
 > > When thoughts pervade the object, the
 chidAbhAsa that is present in the
 > >
 thought also automatically pervades the object. The
 chidAbhAsa, in the
 > > context of
 knowledge, is also referred to as phalam. Therefore
 chidAbhAsa
 > > pervasion or phala
 vyApti also automatically takes place whenever
 > perception
 > > takes
 place. The phalam, which is of the nature of consciousness,
 when
 > > pervading the object is the
 thing which causes the illumination of the
 > > object, and not vritti, which is
 jadam.
 > >
 > >
 To summarise, vritti vyApti removes ignorance and phala
 vyApti creates
 > > illumination. Every
 knowledge of an object therefore requires three
 > things -
 > > the
 object, vritti vyApti and phala vyApti.
 >
 >
 > > Coming to Sri VAdirAja, his
 claim that the removal of the veil of
 >
 ignorance
 > > over the pot should also
 remove the pot adhyAsA does not have merit.
 > Vritti
 > > vyApti
 can only remove the ignorance of the object over which the
 vritti
 > is
 > >
 pervaded. So when perceiving a pot, vritti vyApti on the pot
 can only
 > remove
 >
 > ignorance of the pot, not a cow that is not an object
 of perception at
 > the
 > > time.
 > >
 > > Similarly, and this is the crucial
 bit of the argument, during the
 > >
 perception of a pot, the avidya that covers the pot is the
 only thing
 > that
 >
 > is removed, and not the avidya that covers the upahita
 chaitanyam that is
 > > enclosed by the
 pot.
 > >
 > >
 Therefore in the perception of a pot, pot adhyAsa is not
 removed - the
 > pot
 >
 > doesn't disappear. Then what about a gyAni who
 perceives Brahman
 > everywhere?
 > > Does the pot disappear for him?
 > >
 > > In the case
 of a gyAni, the perception process is different. The
 gyAni
 > > perceives both the pot and
 the upahita chaitanyam in the pot. The latter
 > > perception is in the form of the
 thought - "I am the chaitanyam that is
 > > enclosed in the pot too". This
 is the vritti vyApti that removes the
 >
 > ignorance over the upahita chaitanyam or Brahman.
 > >
 > > ChidAbhAsa
 is present in this Brahman-knowledge-vritti too, however,
 no
 > > illumination is required by
 chidAbhAsa for knowledge of Brahman - because
 > > the Brahman is self effulgent. The
 very illumining power of chidAbhAsa is
 >
 > sourced from Brahman. Therefore, phala vyApti has no
 role in the
 > knowledge
 > > of Brahman.
 >
 >
 > > To summarize, two vritti
 vyAptis take place for the gyAni - vritti
 > vyApti of
 > > the
 pot, and vritti vyApti of the upahita chaitanyam of the
 pot.  Each of
 > > these vritti vyApti
 remove knowledge of the respective items being
 > pervaded
 > > by the
 vritti, viz., pot and upahita chaitanyam, or Brahman.
 > >
 > > As the
 phala vyApti of the pot takes place for a gyAni too, he has
 all
 > three
 > >
 things required for the knowledge of the pot - the object
 (pot), vritti
 > > vyApti over the pot,
 and the phala vyApti over the pot.
 >
 >
 > > However, while a gyAni
 continues seeing the pot,  because the avidyA
 > AvaraNA
 > > over the
 upahita chaitanyam is removed by his mind's Brahman
 knowlede
 > > vritti, he knows that the
 pot is simply mithya, and the upahita
 >
 chaitanyam
 > > that is enclosed in the
 mithya is himself, the only satyam.
 >
 >
 > > Sri Venkatesh Murthy - I hope
 this hasn't confused matters. Sorry for the
 > > long mail.
 >
 >
 > > Regards,
 >
 > Venkatraghavan S
 > >
 > > On 10 Jun 2015 08:34, "H S
 Chandramouli via Advaita-l"
 > >
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 > >>
 >
 >> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
 >
 >>
 > >>
 >
 >>  At the location of the object, the Avidya
 associated with Consciousness
 > >>
 appears as the object and hence is termed the material cause
 of the
 > >> object.
 > >> This is Adhyasa. This object
 encloses the General Consciousness (
 >
 Samanya
 > >> Chaitanya ) as well
 which then is termed Specific Consciousness (
 > Vishesha
 > >>
 Chaitanya ) . This Vishesha Chaitanya itself is associated
 with Avidya
 > >> also
 > >> which is termed Toola Avidya (
 तूलाविद्या ) . When you say
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>  << When I see a pot the
 Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
 > >> can see the pot. >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>  it is this Toola Avidya (
 तूलाविद्या ) located in the Chaitanya
 > enclosed
 > >> by
 the pot which is neutralized by the Mental Vritti and not
 the Avidya
 > >> associated with the
 projection of the pot itself ( which is Adhyasa )
 > >> which
 >
 >> is the material cause of the pot. Thus there is no
 contradiction .
 > >>
 > >> It should however be clarified
 that the two Avidyas  are not entirely
 >
 >> different or independant of each other. Avidya is
 one only. But for
 > >> purposes of
 analysis they are given different names to clarify the
 > >> different roles played under
 different circumstances. There is only one
 > >> all
 > >>
 pervading Consciousness and only one Avidya associated with
 it. Wherever
 > >> Consciousness is
 considered Avidya also is to be automatically
 > construed.
 >
 >>
 > >> Regards
 > >>
 > >> On
 Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l
 <
 > >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 > >>
 >
 >> > Namo Vidvadbhyaha
 >
 >> >
 > >> > I am having
 difficulty analysing one Vaadiraaja's argument in
 > >> > Nyayaratnavali. All the
 objects are covered by Ignorance before we see
 > >> > them. When I see a pot the
 Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
 > >> > can see the pot. Some books
 are calling this 'Veil of Ignorance' But
 > >> > Advaitis will also say the
 pot is a Superimposition - Adhyaasa on
 >
 >> > Brahman. But this Adhyaasa is also Ignorance
 only. If the earlier
 > >> >
 covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can
 the second
 > >> > Ignorance -
 Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
 > >> > destroyed the second
 Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja says
 > >> > Advaitis say the Avaraka
 Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
 > >> > Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then
 if this is true I must not see the pot.
 >
 >> >
 > >> > There is a
 contradiction in Vaadiraaja's opinion. I have to solve
 this
 > >> > contradiction.
 > >> >
 >
 >> > I have a firm belief there is a solution in
 Advaita but I dont know
 > >> >
 it. Kindly inform me if there is a solution. I know some
 people
 > >> > knowing the
 solution but they are not available to answer my question
 > >> > now.
 >
 >> >
 > >> >
 > >> > --
 >
 >> > Regards
 > >> >
 > >> > -Venkatesh
 > >> >
 _______________________________________________
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 > >> >
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 >> _______________________________________________
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 >
 >
 > --
 > Regards
 >
 > -Venkatesh
 >
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