[Advaita-l] Difficulty in Ignorance Analysis

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste Sri Chandramouli Mahodaya

I think there is a mistake in my writing yesterday. I said any object
like Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या. I think Pot Consciousness is
the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या. This Pot Consciousness is Consciousness
enclosed by Pot like you said. I missed this point. Therefore the
तूलाविद्या is not घटाश्रिततूलाविद्या but it is
घटावच्छिन्नचैतन्याश्रिततूलाविद्या. I was told this is the correct way
to say it. Kindly correct if this is also not correct.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:05 PM, H S Chandramouli
<hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
>
>
> Regarding your observation
>
>
> << But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
> Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later
> Advaitis. >> ,
>
>
> it is no doubt true. In fact what I had mentioned in my post was based on
> one of the schools of thought elaborating on the Bhashyam. There are other
> schools of thought as well. But to answer your main question without getting
> into these alternate schools of thought I recap your question here again.
>
>
> << If the earlier
> covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can the second
> Ignorance - Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
> destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja says
> Advaitis say the Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
> Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I must not see the pot. >> .
>
>
> Covering Ignorance, second Ignorance - Adhyasa , Pot ( using your
> terminology ) can all be considered as products of one and the same Avidya ,
> akin to several crystals of salt and the Ocean itself. ( All the salt
> crystals are products of one and the same Ocean water only ) . There is
> nothing like first Ignorance, second Ignorance etc. Destruction of one or
> more of the salt crystals has no effect on the other crystals or the Ocean
> itself. Thus the view of Sri Vadiraja , as stated by you , has no validity.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Many thanks and Pranams to Sri Chandramouli and Sri Venkataraghavan
>> for explaining so nicely and it is like Lord Siva Chandramouleeshwara
>> and Lord Vishnu Venkataraghava both have cleared my doubt. A brief
>> answer may be given.
>>
>> Brahman is the Ashraya for मूलाविद्या the Root Ignorance. If we have
>> to know Brahman the मूलाविद्या must be removed. Then we know Brahman.
>> Similarly any object like Pot is the Ashraya for तूलाविद्या the Modal
>> Ignorance. If we have to know Pot the तूलाविद्या must be removed. When
>> we see a Pot the तूलाविद्या  'Veil of Ignorance' gets destroyed by Pot
>> Vrtti and we know the pot. But the Pot Adhyaasa is still there. It is
>> not destroyed. Why? Because the मूलाविद्या is not destroyed. It is the
>> Material Cause for the Adhyaasa of pot and all objects in the world.
>> Unless and until the मूलाविद्या is destroyed the Adhyaasa will not be
>> destroyed. Sravana, Manana and Nididhyaasana are required to destroy
>> मूलाविद्या.
>>
>> But the words मूलाविद्या and तूलाविद्या are not found in Sankara
>> Prasthana Traya Bhashyas. May be they were explained by later
>> Advaitis.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Great explanation, Sri Chandramouli.
>> >
>> > To add to what you have said: Whenever an object such as pot, etc is
>> > perceived, that object is pervaded by the perceiver's thought or vritti.
>> > This vritti pervasion (vyApti) is  the remover of the veil of ignorance
>> > about the object. However, vritti being jadam, it cannot illuminate the
>> > object, which in the case of most objects are jadam too and therefore
>> > need
>> > illumination. The thing to note here is that vritti vyApti can only
>> > remove
>> > the veil of ignorance over the object. Object illumination requires
>> > something else.
>> >
>> > As we know, the mind reflects the sakshi chaitanyam or pure
>> > consciousness,
>> > as chidAbhAsa, or reflected consciousness. The chidAbhAsA is present
>> > whenever the mind is present, and as the mind consists of thoughts, the
>> > chidAbhAsa is present automatically in every thought too.
>> >
>> > When thoughts pervade the object, the chidAbhAsa that is present in the
>> > thought also automatically pervades the object. The chidAbhAsa, in the
>> > context of knowledge, is also referred to as phalam. Therefore
>> > chidAbhAsa
>> > pervasion or phala vyApti also automatically takes place whenever
>> > perception
>> > takes place. The phalam, which is of the nature of consciousness, when
>> > pervading the object is the thing which causes the illumination of the
>> > object, and not vritti, which is jadam.
>> >
>> > To summarise, vritti vyApti removes ignorance and phala vyApti creates
>> > illumination. Every knowledge of an object therefore requires three
>> > things -
>> > the object, vritti vyApti and phala vyApti.
>> >
>> > Coming to Sri VAdirAja, his claim that the removal of the veil of
>> > ignorance
>> > over the pot should also remove the pot adhyAsA does not have merit.
>> > Vritti
>> > vyApti can only remove the ignorance of the object over which the vritti
>> > is
>> > pervaded. So when perceiving a pot, vritti vyApti on the pot can only
>> > remove
>> > ignorance of the pot, not a cow that is not an object of perception at
>> > the
>> > time.
>> >
>> > Similarly, and this is the crucial bit of the argument, during the
>> > perception of a pot, the avidya that covers the pot is the only thing
>> > that
>> > is removed, and not the avidya that covers the upahita chaitanyam that
>> > is
>> > enclosed by the pot.
>> >
>> > Therefore in the perception of a pot, pot adhyAsa is not removed - the
>> > pot
>> > doesn't disappear. Then what about a gyAni who perceives Brahman
>> > everywhere?
>> > Does the pot disappear for him?
>> >
>> > In the case of a gyAni, the perception process is different. The gyAni
>> > perceives both the pot and the upahita chaitanyam in the pot. The latter
>> > perception is in the form of the thought - "I am the chaitanyam that is
>> > enclosed in the pot too". This is the vritti vyApti that removes the
>> > ignorance over the upahita chaitanyam or Brahman.
>> >
>> > ChidAbhAsa is present in this Brahman-knowledge-vritti too, however, no
>> > illumination is required by chidAbhAsa for knowledge of Brahman -
>> > because
>> > the Brahman is self effulgent. The very illumining power of chidAbhAsa
>> > is
>> > sourced from Brahman. Therefore, phala vyApti has no role in the
>> > knowledge
>> > of Brahman.
>> >
>> > To summarize, two vritti vyAptis take place for the gyAni - vritti
>> > vyApti of
>> > the pot, and vritti vyApti of the upahita chaitanyam of the pot.  Each
>> > of
>> > these vritti vyApti remove knowledge of the respective items being
>> > pervaded
>> > by the vritti, viz., pot and upahita chaitanyam, or Brahman.
>> >
>> > As the phala vyApti of the pot takes place for a gyAni too, he has all
>> > three
>> > things required for the knowledge of the pot - the object (pot), vritti
>> > vyApti over the pot, and the phala vyApti over the pot.
>> >
>> > However, while a gyAni continues seeing the pot,  because the avidyA
>> > AvaraNA
>> > over the upahita chaitanyam is removed by his mind's Brahman knowlede
>> > vritti, he knows that the pot is simply mithya, and the upahita
>> > chaitanyam
>> > that is enclosed in the mithya is himself, the only satyam.
>> >
>> > Sri Venkatesh Murthy - I hope this hasn't confused matters. Sorry for
>> > the
>> > long mail.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Venkatraghavan S
>> >
>> > On 10 Jun 2015 08:34, "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l"
>> > <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  At the location of the object, the Avidya associated with
>> >> Consciousness
>> >> appears as the object and hence is termed the material cause of the
>> >> object.
>> >> This is Adhyasa. This object encloses the General Consciousness (
>> >> Samanya
>> >> Chaitanya ) as well which then is termed Specific Consciousness (
>> >> Vishesha
>> >> Chaitanya ) . This Vishesha Chaitanya itself is associated with Avidya
>> >> also
>> >> which is termed Toola Avidya ( तूलाविद्या ) . When you say
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  << When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
>> >> can see the pot. >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  it is this Toola Avidya ( तूलाविद्या ) located in the Chaitanya
>> >> enclosed
>> >> by the pot which is neutralized by the Mental Vritti and not the Avidya
>> >> associated with the projection of the pot itself ( which is Adhyasa )
>> >> which
>> >> is the material cause of the pot. Thus there is no contradiction .
>> >>
>> >> It should however be clarified that the two Avidyas  are not entirely
>> >> different or independant of each other. Avidya is one only. But for
>> >> purposes of analysis they are given different names to clarify the
>> >> different roles played under different circumstances. There is only one
>> >> all
>> >> pervading Consciousness and only one Avidya associated with it.
>> >> Wherever
>> >> Consciousness is considered Avidya also is to be automatically
>> >> construed.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
>> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Namo Vidvadbhyaha
>> >> >
>> >> > I am having difficulty analysing one Vaadiraaja's argument in
>> >> > Nyayaratnavali. All the objects are covered by Ignorance before we
>> >> > see
>> >> > them. When I see a pot the Ignorance cover is lifted and then only I
>> >> > can see the pot. Some books are calling this 'Veil of Ignorance' But
>> >> > Advaitis will also say the pot is a Superimposition - Adhyaasa on
>> >> > Brahman. But this Adhyaasa is also Ignorance only. If the earlier
>> >> > covering Ignorance is destroyed when I see the pot how can the second
>> >> > Ignorance - Adhyaasa arise? If the first covering Ignorance is
>> >> > destroyed the second Ignorance must not arise. Because Vaadiraaja
>> >> > says
>> >> > Advaitis say the Avaraka Ajnana - covering Ajnana is the Material
>> >> > Cause of the Adhyaasa. Then if this is true I must not see the pot.
>> >> >
>> >> > There is a contradiction in Vaadiraaja's opinion. I have to solve
>> >> > this
>> >> > contradiction.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have a firm belief there is a solution in Advaita but I dont know
>> >> > it. Kindly inform me if there is a solution. I know some people
>> >> > knowing the solution but they are not available to answer my question
>> >> > now.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > -Venkatesh
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>> --
>> Regards
>>
>> -Venkatesh
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh