[Advaita-l] Fwd: Knowledge of Brahman

[Venkatraghavan S]

Sri Harsha,

This is a mantra that uses symbols to convey a message. Why should anyone
insist on taking symbols literally?

If one takes allegories literally, one may also insist that the paramatma
is actually a bird, the world is really a tree, and that there are as many
paramAtmas as there are jivAtmas, etc, which would be absurd.

What is meant to be conveyed by "pashyati" in the second mantra is that by
knowledge (Atma jnAnam) alone the jivA bird crosses shokA, that is attains
mokshA. By "seeing"  it is meant that mokshA is Brahma satyatva darshanam
and jagat mithyAtva darshanam.

As an aside, if the jivAtma-paramAtma symbolism is confusing, elsewhere in
the VedA it is said that the two birds are in fact two 'parts' within the
jIva only.  The paingi rahasya brAhmana contains the mantra too along with
its interpretation, which Shankara refers to in his Brahma Sutra Bhashyam.
There, the VedA itself says that the two birds are not jivatma and
paramatma, but chidAbhAsa and kUtastha. When chidAbhAsa knows the kUtastha
is the reality, the source of its own (i.e. chidAbhAsa's) existence, it
becomes free from misery.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan
On 12 Nov 2015 01:37, "Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Subbu Sir,
>                                Understood,But this mantra says when second
> bird sees the first bird ,it becomes free from misery ...
>
> But this mantra never says that second bird merges with first bird...this
> mantra still keeps duality (two birds)..even in moksha..
>
> So,Please can you please elaborate on this..
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste,
> >
> > The Upanishada does talk about the five Koshas. After the Jiva  leaves
> > behind the Sthula sarira, which consists of the Annamaya Kosha and the
> > Pranamaya Kosha, it is left with Sukshma sarira, which consists of the
> > three finer Koshas. The Jiva will have to leave the Sukshma sarira too,
> to
> > become Videha-mukta, in order to become free from the Maya. It is Maya,
> > which creates the false division between the Jiva and Brahman.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sunil KB
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 6:46 AM, Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 8:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Knowledge of Brahman
> > To: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at braincells.com>
> >
> >
> > Jaldar sir,
> >                         Completely understood,
> > But the very next mantra says...
> >
> > samane vrikshe purusho nimagno
> >
> >     hy anishaya shocati muhyamanah
> >
> > jushtam sada pashyaty anyam isham
> >
> >     asya mahimanam eti vita-shokah
> >
> >
> > Which says ,even in mukthi there is this (Two birds beda ) right?...
> >
> > That means this suksha sharira is still there in moksha ??which is
> against
> > advaitha which says only brahman is there in moksha..
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Sri Subrahmanian,
> > > Very fine observations, indeed. Thanks for sharing.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Venkatraghavan
> > >
> > > On 11 Nov 2015 06:42, "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A few years ago, Vidwan Sri Mani Dravid Sastrigal, in a Tamil talk on
> > > the references to 'bheda' in the Brahma sutras had made an interesting
> > > observation:
> > > >
> > > > In the Dvṣ suparṇa mantra the word 'tayoḥ anyaḥ pippalam svādvatti'
> > does
> > > not show any real difference between the two: jiva and Ishvara.  For a
> > true
> > > bheda to be indicated there is a vyakarana requirement, as per a sutra,
> > > that a panchami has to be used. Hence, the mantra, if it wanted to show
> > > jiva as different from Ishvara would have to say: tasmāt anyaḥ.  The
> > tayoḥ
> > > anyaḥ only means 'of the two, one is doing this....and the other
> > > is...doing...'
> > > >
> > > > And in the subsequent mantra: the word 'anyam īśam' there is the word
> > > anya which means 'other'.  Here too, the reference is not to show any
> > > difference between the jiva and Ishvara but only that jiva who is
> > > identified with the body, now identifies himself with the 'other' that
> is
> > > Atma, which is only 'other' than/from the body.
> > > >
> > > > So, there is no place anywhere in the Veda where there is a real (as
> > per
> > > the non-advaitins) difference-indicating word is present.  On the other
> > > hand, there are several aikya-teaching sentences in the Veda which
> alone
> > > have become the problematic ones for the non-advaitins forcing them to
> > > labor giving convoluted and extremely artificial explanations to them.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > > vs
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Sri Harsha,
> > > >>
> > > >> You said:
> > > >>
> > > >> "In dwe suparne matra says even in moksha there are two
> > > birds,So,according
> > > >> to vedas only second bird (Bhudhi) exists even in moksha"
> > > >>
> > > >> This is not true. Not every statement in VedA is a mahAvAkya talking
> > > about
> > > >> paramArtha satyam. The dvA suparNa mantra refers to vyavahAra only,
> > > where
> > > >> the second bird (chidAbhAsa) is apparently engaged in activities,
> > while
> > > the
> > > >> first (kUtastha) is the the silent sAkshi. This mantra does not talk
> > > about
> > > >> their aikyam explicitly, but that doesn't mean that their aikyam is
> > not
> > > >> true.  There are several other vAkyams that talk about aikyam, which
> > is
> > > the
> > > >> ultimate reality, or as you say, "what exists in moksha".
> > > >>
> > > >> In general, bheda vAkyas can be reconciled with abheda (the former
> as
> > > >> vyAhArika satya, and the latter being the pAramArthika satya), but
> if
> > > you
> > > >> take bhedA as ultimate reality, the abhedA vAkyas will be rendered
> > > >> meaningless, and no VedA vAkya can be dismissed as meaningless.
> > > >>
> > > >> In interpreting Veda mantras one needs to consider the VedA as a
> > whole,
> > > >> because if one statement/mantra is taken in isolation it may lead
> only
> > > to a
> > > >> partial understanding, sometimes even a wrong one.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Venkatraghavan
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