[Advaita-l] mithyA and abhAva chatuShTaya - Vaadiraaja's Nyayaratnavali Slokas 43-46

[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste
>
> > Actually, in Dvaita, the Only Swatantra Satyam is Brhaman (Viṣṇu) and
> > everything other than Brahman enjoys only paratantra satyatvam, dependent
> > reality.  Veda too, thus, comes under paratantra satyam.  P.S is
> something
> > that does not have a reality of its own; it is forced to 'derive' reality
> > from Brahman.
>
> I think the Dvaitis may not agree with this. Just because a thing is
> dependent on God it cannot be unreal.
> They will say Svatantra Prameya and Paratantra Prameya are both real.
> For Dvaitis there is no Connection between Reality
> and Independence like Advaitis are making. Something like Jeeva can be
> Real but Dependent. God Vishnu is Real and Independent.
>

Here are a few excerpts from my earlier posts in this forum:

The article (series) is here:

https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/buddhism-advaita-and-dvaita-1/


Dr.BNK Sharma (BNK) On page 146 of the Book in the footnote are given by
BNK the eight verses quoted by Sri Madhvacharya in the work ‘Tattvodyota’:

On page 142 of the Book BNK says:
// The TattvasankhyAna (11 granthas) enumerates the categories recognized
by Madhva.  Here*reality* is *dichotomized* into ‘Swatantra’ (Independent)
and ‘paratantra’ (dependent).  This is the highest metaphysical and
ontological classification in Madhva’s system, whence his system derives
its name ‘Dvaita’.  God Vishnu is the One Highest Independent Real.  All
else is dependent on Him, including the Goddess Lakshmi, the presiding
deity of a-cit prakRti.  // (emphasis mine)

//Everything in finite reality is grounded in the Infinite reality and
needs it for its *being and becoming*.//  p.62

The dependence of the world of matter and the souls on Brahman is in the
sense that both are functioning at His will, which is the *essential
condition and sustaining principle* that invests them with their reality *and
without which they would be but void names and bare possibilities.* //
(emphasis mine) (page 67)

My comments:  The above statements show very clearly that for Dvaita, the
paratantra cannot even ‘be’, ‘exist’, in the absence of the ‘sattaa’
provided by / drawn from the Swatantra.  There is no ‘svatantra-sattaa’ for
the paratantra, it is ‘parataH sattaa’ alone it enjoys. The
characterization of the true status of the paratantra as ‘mere void names
and bare possibilities’ by none other than an acclaimed authority on Dvaita
Vedanta, Dr.BNK  clearly depicts the Advaitic position with regard to the
naama-rUpa prapancha.  Of special significance is the Advaitic
interpretation of the Chandogya mantra: , वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयम्
मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम् which clearly applies to the above characterization of
the paratantra by the Dvaita school. In advaita too, just as the Dvaitins
have specified, the created world has no substance of its own other than
Brahman.  It is nothing but ‘void names and bare possibilities’ without
Brahman. A pot is but a ‘void name and a bare possibility’ without the
clay, the material cause. A wave or an ocean are but ‘void names and bare
possibilities’ without their material water. Thus according to BNK, Dvaita
considers that the ‘natural’ nature of the world of names and forms to be
‘mere voids and bare possibilities’.  However, ONLY when they are endowed
with Hari’s ‘apekShA’, consideration, they acquire a paratantra reality.
And Hari too can exist without them and that is His True nature and His
‘apekShA’ of them is only out of His Will, otherwise termed mAyA.

All that Advaita categorises under ‘vyavahaarika’ is shown under
‘paratantra’ in  Dvaita. While Advaita holds Brahman alone as the
PaaramArthika, Dvaita has ‘ViShNu’ alone to show under Swatantra.  Thus,
the two-fold categorisation of the Tattva/Satya is not avoidable even for
Dvaita.

A statement from Sri Raghavendra Tirtha's (a highly respected Acharya of
the Madhva sampradaya) commentary on the PuruSha sUktam.  The Swami, while
commenting on the words 'पुरुष एवेदं सर्वम्’ [All this is that PuruSha
alone] has cited a verse from a smRti:


"*yadadHInA yasya sattA tat tadityEva bHanyatE*"

यदधीना यस्य सत्ता तत् तदित्येव भण्यते ।

[That whose sattA, existence, is dependent on Him (something other than
itself) is spoken of as 'He Himself'.]

To explain, the 'idam', the created world, the paratantra, depends on That
(Him) for its very existence.  That way it (the created world) is spoken of
as 'The PuruSha, the Creator, Himself'.  Of course the Madhvas carefully
avoid giving it an advaitic meaning.

So here there is a confirmation from the Madhva school itself for the fact
that the paratantra (the dependent reality, the vyAvahArika of Advaita) has
no existence, sattA, of its own; it exists on the borrowed existence of the
Swatantra (the independent Reality, the paaramArthika of Advaita).

As I had stated earlier, such a situation is best explained by the
rope-snake analogy.  The illusory/superimposed snake has no existence,
sattA, of itself.  As long as one sees a snake there, its 'existence' is no
different from the existence of the underlying rope there.  The rope's
existence itself is transferred, as it were, to the snake and the vyavahara
goes on: there exists a snake.  While in truth there is the rope alone and
no snake at all, the sattA being One Only and not two, it is concluded that
the rope alone appears as the snake.  When the rope-knowledge is had, what
gets sublated is the 'snake' alone and NOT the 'existence', sattA.  In
fact, sattA, which is truly Brahman, Sat, Itself, can never go out of
existence: न अभावो विद्यते सतः. Now he will start saying 'there IS a rope'
or 'a rope exists'.  But this will be too much for the Dvaitins to admit
although they mean this alone without saying it in so many words.


regards

vs

>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:00 PM, V Subrahmanian
> <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l
> > <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Namaste,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Vaadiraaja has asked this interesting question to Advaitis. Then he is
> >> making allegation Advaiti behaviour is like killing his own mother.
> >> रजतार्थी भ्रमे जाते तदैव तदपेक्षया ।
> >> तत्र गत्वा बाधकं च तत्काले प्रतिपद्यते ॥
> >> A person desiring silver goes to find it and gets the Shell Silver
> >> Illusion. Examining the Shell Silver the Illusion is cancelled then
> >> and there itself.
> >> तदनर्थी भ्रमे जातेऽप्युपेक्ष्य स्वगृहं गतः ।
> >> बाधं च नैव जानीते को विशेषस्तयोर्वद ॥
> >> A person not desiring silver and seeing the Shell Silver will ignore
> >> it and go home. For him there is no cancellation of Shell Silver
> >> Illusion. Tell me what is the difference between the two?
> >>
> >> Vaadiraaja is making this example. There are two persons A and B. A is
> >> interested in getting silver. If he sees Shell Silver Illusion he will
> >> examine it and find it is not silver but Ilusion Silver only. It is
> >> Pratibhasika Silver. Therefore his Illusion has ended. Person B is not
> >> at all interested in silver even if it is lying in front of him. He
> >> will see the Shell Silver Illusion. But he will not even examine it
> >> because he is not interested. He ignores the Shell Silver and goes
> >> home. For him there is no Illusion cancellation.
> >>
> >> What is the difference between the two? Vaadiraaja is saying Advaiti
> >> will simply say there is no difference. Because Pratibhasika and
> >> Vyavaharika are the same for him. Person A has Vyavaharika knowledge
> >> it is not Silver but Shell. But Shell is also Illusion only. It is not
> >> Brahman. Person B has Pratibhasika knowledge of Silver. Both Shell and
> >> Silver are Illusions only. There is no difference between them. This
> >> is the Advaiti argument. If you take there are only two Sattas
> >> Paramarthika and Pratibhasika  this will be the result. But if you
> >> take three Sattas Paramarthika, Vyavaharika and Pratibhasika the
> >> Advaiti will say Person A has Vyavaharika knowledge and Person B has
> >> Pratibhasika knowledge. There is a difference between them here.
> >>
> >> अनिवर्त्य महाभ्रान्तिजनकोन्मादरोगवान् ।
> >> सर्वोपकारिवेदादेर्हीनादपि च हीनताम् ।
> >> यो ब्रूते वैदिकच्छद्मी हन्ति मातरमेव सः ।
> >> विश्वापकारकरणं तस्य लीलेति मे मतिः ॥
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually, in Dvaita, the Only Swatantra Satyam is Brhaman (Viṣṇu) and
> > everything other than Brahman enjoys only paratantra satyatvam, dependent
> > reality.  Veda too, thus, comes under paratantra satyam.  P.S is
> something
> > that does not have a reality of its own; it is forced to 'derive' reality
> > from Brahman.  The only example possible for this phenomenon is the
> > rope-snake.  While the advaitin openly says that the Veda is only
> > vyavaharika satya (paratantra satya), the Dvaitin does not openly say
> that.
> > He accepts veda as paratantra satya and insists that it is 'as real as
> > Brahman', an argument that no one will take.
> >
> > Thus, by according a lower level of satyatvam, a second-class citizen
> > status, to Veda, the Dvaitin has no right to accuse the advaitin on this
> > count.  The   यो ब्रूते वैदिकच्छद्मी हन्ति मातरमेव सः  accusation of Sri
> > Vadiraja rebounds on himself. By according a non-swatantra satyam status
> to
> > Veda and swearing by the veda makes him a vaidika cchadmī even more than
> the
> > advaitin who openly admits that veda has only vyavaharika satyam.  If he
> > says that within paratantra satya, entities like Lakshmi, veda, vāyu
> have a
> > higher status, then the advatin also has the response: within
> vyavaharika,
> > veda, guru, upadesha, sādhana, realization, etc have a higher status.
> >
> > Thus, there is no strength in Sri Vādiraja's objection.
> >
> > regards
> > vs
> >
> >
> >>
> >> The Advaiti is a maniac with a mental disease from the Uncancellable
> >> Great Illusion. He has the disguise of  having a Veda base. The Vedas
> >> are doing good to all but he is saying they have a very poor status.
> >> It is like he is killing his own mother. I feel doing harm to the
> >> world is his Leela.
> >>
> >> Vaadiraaja has not understood Advaita theories. In dreamless sleep
> >> will Vaadiraaja see his mother? No. Will he see the world objects and
> >> people of the world in dreamless sleep? No. Can we say he has killed
> >> his mother in dreamless sleep? No. Can we say he has done harm to the
> >> world in dreamless sleep? No. Will he hear Vedas in dreamless sleep?
> >> No. Then why is he blaming Advaitis of killing mother and harming the
> >> world? Because he has not even understood dreamless sleep. First he
> >> must understand dreamless sleep and then only he can understand
> >> Moksha. He is very far from understanding Moksha.
> >>
> >> Taking Vyavaharika Illusory objects to be real is a bigger mental
> >> disease than realization of the objects unreality. Those people are
> >> the maniacs because they search for happiness in worldly objects
> >> thinking they are real.
>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> -Venkatesh
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>