[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: avidya vs maayaa - What is the difference? - Part 4

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste SadAji,
I'm glad you did not misunderstand my queries.
One thing for you to consider is if you say jIva has some vikshepa shakti,
what is it in the jIva that has the vikshepa shakti, is it avidyA? or is it
antah karaNam?

If it is avidyA, then you will come to our side with avidyA having both
AvaraNa and vikshepa shakti.

If it is antahkaraNam, then you will also have to say avidyA is abhAvarUpa
- Otherwise how can avidyA existing in kAraNa sharIra cause vikshepa
existing in antahkaraNam to be activated? Thus every vishaya ajnAna means
lack of knowledge of that vishayA in the mind, leading to vikshepa of that
vishaya as something else.

Extending this argument, if all ajnAna is only antah karaNa dharma, what is
the need to postulate a kAraNa sharIra, but that is not a position that you
want to take, I think.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan

On 4 Dec 2016 4:00 p.m., "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Venkatraghavanji - PraNAms
>
> Thanks for the interesting questions. No, I do not consider as vitanda
> vaada - need critical questioning to insure what I said is right or not
> wrong, even if it does not agree with traditional aacharyas.
>
> Just at the outset. I had stated in my posts that there are  jeeva sRiShti
> and Iswara sRiShti - and jeeva has some vikshepa shakti - to create enough
> confusion for himself - by taking what he is not as he is. The mamakaara
> and ahankaara comes from jeeva sRiShTi only - not Iswara sRishTi. The snake
> on the rope is jeeva sRiShTi while rope is Iswara sRiShti
>
> I consider all praatibhaasika errors are jeeva sRishTi while vyaavahaarika
> errors are Iswara sRiShti. Some jiiva super imposes his own inference on
> top of iswara sRishiTi like water on the desert sand when sunlight is
> reflected at a glancing angle. This arises since all objective knowledge is
> attributive knowledge.
>
> I see some of your comments are related to jeevan vikshepa shakti - Jeeva
> has that power to project when he has partial ignorance. He may not create
> the 14 lokas but creates enough mess around him and the people around him!
>
> The rest I will address tomorrow.
>
> Hari  Om!
> Sada
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
> vedanta.org>
> *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
> vedanta.org>; kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 4, 2016 5:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: avidya vs maayaa - What is the
> difference? - Part 4
>
> Namaste SadAji,
> If you take avidyA and mAya as different, with
> a) avidyA being only AvaraNa and mAya being only vikshepa, and
> b) jIva is the Ashraya of avidyA and Ishvara is the Ashraya of mAya,
>
> 1) how is avidyA the cause of samsAra as in sleep there is only avidyA, no
> vikshepa, and there is no experience of samsAra then? So vikshepa is the
> cause of samsaara.
> 2) By whose vikshepa shakti is the jIva's svapna prapancha created?
> According to you, jIva is only endowed with AvaraNa, not vikshepa, so he
> cannot have created it. NirguNa Brahman cannot create anything. So by
> pArisheSha nyAya, it has to be Ishvara who creates it. However, advaita
> shAstra says that it is the jIva that creates svapna prapancha because of
> his vAsanas. So that needs to be explained. If you say the jIva creates it,
> using what does he create it? If with vikshepa, how did the jIva get it, as
> he has only avidyA = AvaraNa and not mAya=vikshepa.
> 3) Not only avidyA, mAya also is jaDam only. It is only the presence of
> chaitanyam and partial AvaraNa, that allows vikshepa to project. In
> praLaya, when the entire universe is in the unmanifest form, vikshepa
> shakti also is unmanifest only. In that mahA sushupti, does Ishvara himself
> experience avidyA or does he not - यो अस्याध्यक्ष परमेव्योमन्त्सो अङ्ग वेद
> यदि वा न वेद? If so, whose avidyA does he experience, as he does not have
> any, in your formulation? If he does not experience avidyA, what is that
> great blankness of non creation in pralaya?
> 4) Coming back down to earth, how does avidyA nivritti in jAgrat avasthA,
> lead to mAya satyatva nivritti for the jnAni, because they are two
> different things located in two different entities, in your view? By avidyA
> nivritti he will know he is Brahman, but how will he also know that mAya is
> mithyA? A jnAni who has AvaraNa nivritti only will consider himself as the
> satya jagat kartA of a satya jagat. How does avidyA nivritti (AvaraNa
> nivritti) translate to jagat mithyA?
>
> Please do not take this is as vitaNDA vAdam, I am only doing this to point
> out that if the purpose of the formulation was to make it appealing to a
> rational mind, it is no better than the alternative that you are seeking to
> replace.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On 4 Dec 2016 3:48 a.m., "kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > PraNams. I am providing some discussion that was raised -  may be of
> > interest to some. I have to split it  into two parts since the list is
> not
> > accepting as one post as it is too long.--------------------------------
> Sudhesji
> > - PraNAms
> >
> > I have provided below myunderstanding.
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sudheshji:
> >
> > One important point youhave made that I thought otherwise is Mayaa and
> > Avidya are not the same.
> > Sada: The point I madeis that they can be separated rather than equating
> > the two as one and the same.
> > ----------------------------------
> > Sudhesh:
> > So far my understandingis that maaya is with reference to the macro or
> > cosmic person and Avdiya withreference to micro or individual self and
> > hence both have the same two aspectsof AvaraNa and vikshEpa operating
> from
> > two points of references.
> >
> > Sada:
> >
> > avidya is only atmicrolevel - as jeeva does not know that he is Brahman
> > and each jeeva has tomake his own effort for realization. Some total of
> all
> > jeevas do not makeinfinite since sum of finites is finite only and not
> > infinite.
> >
> > Ignorance only covers oravarana. To gain the knowledge one has to
> > dis-cover. This is true for anyignorance. Ignorance by itself does not
> > project anything. It only covers theknowledge. For projection mind with
> > chidaabhaasa is needed. Hence from my pointavidya by itself does not have
> > viskhepa shakti. avidya may lead to vikshepa if there is partial
> knowledge
> > (where upahita chaitanya or mind withchidaabhaasa comes in) If the mind
> is
> > absent or folded as in laya (individualsleep) or pralaya (brahmaji's
> > sleep), then there is no vikshepa.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Sudesh:
> >
> > Per your post can I takethat only maaya has these two aspects and avidya
> > is nothing but AvaraNaoperating at individual level? Since vikshEpa is
> only
> > due to partialignorance, or putting in another way is vikshEpa an effect
> of
> > avidya?
> >
> > Sada: Yes you are right,you have articulated what I wrote above.
> > ------------------Sudesh:
> >
> > If there is no avidyathen there is no vikshEpa - no? Can viskhEpa exist
> > without ignorance?
> > Sada: As long as BMIwhich is a product of Vikshepa of Iswara is there -
> > that BMI will continue to perceivethe Iswara sRiShti. The jeevan mukta
> has
> > no more avidya. However, as long ashis BMI (due to praarabda) is there,
> the
> > universe is still perceived. Hence wehave jnaani teachers with ajnaani
> > students.
> >
> > Hence Vikshepa can existwithout avidya - that is the point why they can
> be
> > separated and avidyacan exist without vikshepa as in laya or pralaya.
> >
> > Iswara has only Vikshepaor maaya shakti for projecting the whole
> universe.
> > He is sarvajna and sarvavitas Mundaka (mantra 9, ch. I- sec.10 says -
> that
> > is He has both para and aparavidya. Hence Iswara has not avidya but has
> > maaya as his shakti.
> >
> > To be continued.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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