[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Upanishads deny any absolute form for Brahman

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Subbuji - PraNAms

First the statements and explanations are very clear. 

I was however intrigued by the title. - absolute and form - and for Brahman. 

Both absolute and form are from the relative. One cannot say absolute when there is no relative. Brahman being Brahman (infinite-ness) there is neither absolute nor relative in or for Brahman - and one cannot even use in or for etc any vibhakti too. Hence the real statement is - yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaa saha. or na vaak gacchati na manaH - the speech and the mind return back without describing Brahman.

Yet everything that is perceived has to be in Brahman - nay is Brahman since Brahman being Brahman (infinite) cannot have parts too - hence we cannot say everything or anything other than for transactions.

Hence I would put the message - whatever that is perceived is Brahman only even though Brahman is imperceptible as you have described - Hence Krishna statement Brahmaarpanam .. etc. that Ladle is Brahman etc 

If I want to know Brahman or see Brahman or even transact with Brahman -recognize that whatever I see is Brahman and whatever I know is Brahman and whatever I transact with is Brahman - including the one who is transacting with whatever he is transacting - since Brahman being infinite has no parts! 

However for those who do not see this, all the teaching that you have mentioned to exclude what is not Brahman.

Could not resist.

My 2c
Hari Om!
Sada




--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 2/24/16, V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com [advaitin] <advaitin at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: [advaitin] Upanishads deny any absolute form for Brahman
 To: science-religion-philosophy at googlegroups.com, "Advaitin" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2016, 2:26 AM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       In the Kathopanishad we have
 this mantra:
 न संदृशे  तिष्ठति
 रूपमस्य न चक्षुषा
 पश्यति कश्चनैनम् ।
 हृदा मनीषा
 मनसाऽभिक्लृप्तो य
 एतद्विदुरमृतास्ते
 भवन्ति ॥ 2.3.9 ॥
 The bhashyam:  कथं
 तर्हि तस्य अलिङ्गस्य
 दर्शनमुपपद्यत इति,
 उच्यते — न संदृशे
 संदर्शनविषये न
 तिष्ठति
 प्रत्यगात्मनः अस्य
 रूपम् । अतः न चक्षुषा
 सर्वेन्द्रियेण,
 चक्षुर्ग्रहणस्योपलक्षणार्थत्वात्,
 पश्यति नोपलभते कश्चन
 कश्चिदपि एनं
 प्रकृतमात्मानम् । कथं
 तर्हि तं पश्येदिति,
 उच्यते — हृदा
 हृत्स्थया बुद्ध्या,
 मनीषा मनसः
 सङ्कल्पादिरूपस्य
 ईष्टे
 नियन्तृत्वेनेति
 मनीट् तया मनीषा
 विकल्पवर्जितया
 बुद्ध्या । मनसा
 मननरूपेण
 सम्यग्दर्शनेन
 अभिक्लृप्तः
 अभिसमर्थितः
 अभिप्रकाशित इत्येतत्
 । आत्मा ज्ञातुं शक्य
 इति वाक्यशेषः ।
 तमात्मानं ब्रह्म एतत्
 ये विदुः अमृताः ते
 भवन्ति ॥The
 upanishad says that Brahman/Atman is not an object for
 ocular perception.  It has no form. By extension, it is not
 an object of any perception, of touch, nose, sound and
 taste. These are specifically denied by another mantra of
 the upanishad:अशब्दमस्पर्शमरूपमव्ययं
 तथारसं
 नित्यमगन्धवच्च यत्
 । 
 अनाद्यनन्तं
 महतः परं ध्रुवं
 निचाय्य तं
 मृत्युमुखात्प्रमुच्यते
 ॥ १५ ॥ 1.3.15
 The
 first cited mantra says,therefore, the way to know, realize,
 Brahman is only through the prepared mind, a subtle,
 pointed, intellect. 
 Shankara
 reasons that the form, space, sound, etc. are
 transformations of the elements and thus are not there in
 Brahman which transcends elements. Anything formed is finite
 and undergoes transformations and therefore perishable, as
 it is only owing to be created it can have any
 form. 
 It
 is only because of this, that all hold Brahman to be the
 object of the pramana called the veda, It being atīndriya.
 It Brahman had form, etc. then there would be no need for
 the veda, for it would be within the grasp of the sense
 organs. 
 There is a name 'aprameya'
 occurring in the Vishnu sahasra nama: 46. The word means: He
 who is not an object for any pramana.  Shankaracharya's
 commentary:
 
 
 
 There is another name:
 anirdeśyavapuḥ  117. Shankara says:
 
 Vishnu cannot be pointed out to
 anyone (by anyone) as 'this is that'. 
 
 The
 Shvetashvataropanishat 4.20 too teaches that Brahman has no
 form, similar to the Kathopanishat seen
 above:
 
 
    The
 Kathopanishat also teaches:
 अशरीरं शरीरेषु अनवस्थेषु
 अवस्थितम्. महान्तं
 विभुमात्मानं मत्वा
 धीरो न शोचति ( Kathopanishat
 1.2.22)
 
 n
 the above we find that the Upanishad is categorical about
 Brahman not having a form.  None can 'see' Brahman
 with the physical eye.  One can however 'know' that
 it is Brahman that appears as the vishvarUpa.  Again, one
 can know through the disciplined mind that Brahman which is
 without any form whatsoever.  
 
 However, as Shankara says in the
 BSB, Brahman/Ishwara can and does take on a form, any
 including the ones spoken of above, to bless/help an
 aspirant in his sadhana.:
 
 स्यात्परमेश्वरस्यापि इच्छावशात्
 मायामयं रूपं
 साधकानुग्रहार्थम् ।
 (1.1.vii.20) (Ishwara, out of compassion, takes on, by
 His Maya, a form to grace the spiritual aspirant.)
 
 
 http://advaita-l.advaita-vedanta.narkive.com/YIWu99mw/what-is-aprakrta
 
 Thus, the true aspirant of Brahma
 jnana, who is also a true bhakta, as per Shankara, is quite
 well aware, on the basis of the Upanishads and yukti, that
 Brahman has no form and, therefore, no name as well.  The
 primary logic here being that that which is not an object at
 all, but the very subject, cannot be a indriya grāhya
 vishaya.  A name is given only to differentiate an object
 from all other objects. Since Brahman is no object at all,
 the question of its having an absolute name is also ruled
 out. This is the understanding of the Vedantic sadhaka.
  
 
 
     
      
 
     
     __._,_.___
 
           
   
  
 
     
      
 
     
         
         Posted by: V Subrahmanian
 <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>        
      
      
 
     
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