[Advaita-l] avidya is Agantuka

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Sri SadAji,
Thanks sir, very helpful background.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan
On 13 Jan 2016 16:35, "kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Shree Venkatrghavan - PraNAms
>
> Just noticed the posts and could not resist adding my 2c.
>
>  In the recent Vicharasagara class, Swami Paramarthanandaji mentioned that
> the 'pratyaksha' is defined by having jnaana vRitti and vishaya sambandha -
> Recapitulation the lessons- Pratyaksha occurs 1. by sense perception and 2.
> by shaabda pratyaksha and 3. Saakshi pratyaksha.  The first one we all
> know. The second is like dashamaha in the 10th man story,.  or introducing
> some one as, say, he is president of this organization- Sense perception is
> only his form but shaabda pratyaka is knowledge that he is the president
> understood by shabda pramaana. - Saakshi pratyaksha comes by process of
> elimination - paarisheShanyaaya - that which is immediate but not via
> indriayas or by shabda - most of the emotions, or internal perceptions
> come under this. All perceptions can be considered as anubhava in a sense.
>
> Brahma vidya comes under Shaabda pratyaksha - via mahaavaakaya vichaara.
> It is not conventional anubhava that involves tripuTi which therefore
> involves vritti vyaapti and phala vyaapti, the self-knowledge via
> mahaavaakya vichaara involves vRitti vyaapti but no phalavyaati - in the
> sense that object of awareness is self-evident. Hence it is in a way
> shaabda pratyaksha jnaanam where the knower and known identity is being
> implied as in dhashamaH. I am the 10th man is immediate experience that
> does not involve tripuTi but involves immediate and direct knowledge of the
> missing 10th man. Same way the mahaavaakya vichaara.
>
> About avidyaa also - it is experienced in the deep-sleep state -and
> therefore by process of elimination, it is considered as saakshi pratyaksha
> jnaanam. There is no conventional triputi there yet it is intense
> experience of the absence of the all subject-object relationships. The
> avidya is avidya of the subject-object duality, as well the existence of
> the subject - I am- - and is called akhandaakaara ajnaana vRitti in the
> deep sleep state as discussed by Vidyaranya in the 11th Chapter of
> Pancadashi.
>
>  I can recollect this experience after awake, that 1. I slept very well,
> 2. I did not know anything 3. I was happy, in the deep sleep state. Bri. Up
> in fact dwell extensively in the 4th Chapter about deep sleep state to the
> extent that some misinterpret that state as similar to realized state.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 1/13/16, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> ,
>
>  Seeking आत्म
>  अनुभव, to experience the Atma, is an exercise in
>  futility, for
>  the Atma cannot be an object
>  of experience, nor an object of the senses.
>
>  That knowledge of Atma is to
>  be had from Shastra under the guidance of a
>  guru, and until the knowledge is attained, the
>  आवरण, which is a lack of
>  knowledge
>  of the आत्मा is said to be present.
>
>  अविद्या, which
>  is of the nature of आवरण and विक्षेप,
>  is not an object of
>  experience either. One
>  cannot see or experience अविद्या, but can
>  experience
>  it's effects, which is this
>  दृश्य प्रपंच.
>
>  Regards,
>  Venkatraghavan
>  On 13
>  Jan 2016 15:40, "sreenivasa murthy" <narayana145 at yahoo.co.in>
>  wrote:
>
>  > Dear Sri
>  Venkataraghvan,
>  >
>  >
>  You write : "That was what I was trying to say in
>  shorthand - but the
>  > important thing
>  > was to establish that आवरण was
>  very much present in the waking state."
>  >   You want to establish that
>  AvaraNa was very much present in the waking
>  > state.What is that *AvaraNa*?How do you
>  know that there is *AvaraNa* in
>  > your
>  waking state? Who has seen it? Or is it a concept which has
>  been told
>  > in an ancient text ? Has one
>  accepted that concept blindly without
>  >
>  verification in his own *anuBava*?  These doubts crossed my
>  mind while I
>  > was going through the
>  above passage of yours.
>  >
>  > With warm and respectful regards,
>  > Sreenivasa Murthy
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  ------------------------------
>  > *From:*
>  Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>  > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  > *To:* H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>  > *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita
>  Vedanta <
>  > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  > *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 January 2016 7:21
>  PM
>  > *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] avidya is
>  Agantuka
>  >
>  > Namaste
>  Sri Chandramouli ji,
>  >
>  > I'm somewhat confused. I thought you
>  were saying earlier that the
>  >
>  manifestation of कारण शरीर is limited to
>  सुषुप्ति. However, the latest
>  > emails indicate that you agree that
>  कारण शरीर is manifest in all three
>  > अवस्थाs. I agree with this
>  btw, but it appears a change to your earlier
>  > position (of course, I simply may not have
>  understood what you were saying
>  >
>  earlier).
>  >
>  > Coming
>  back to the topic at hand, we are in agreement that the
>  > manifestation of अविद्या
>  occurs in all three states. The manifestation is
>  > of the nature of association with a body
>  शरीर अभिमानं (this you may not
>  > agree with, see next paragraph). It is
>  this manifestation that is आगन्तुकं.
>  > If this is the interpretation of Sri
>  Anandagiri AchArya and Sri
>  >
>  ShankarAchArya, I am in agreement.
>  >
>  > If शरीर अभिमानं is
>  taken to be the meaning of अभिव्यक्तं,
>  that implies the
>  > inclusion of both
>  आवरण रूप अविद्या and
>  विक्षेप रूप अविद्या as the
>  objects
>  > of the adjective
>  आगन्तुकी. However, here it may be argued the
>  context of
>  > the
>  बृहदारण्यक मंत्र is
>  सुषुप्ति, and hence only आवरण is
>  being described as
>  >
>  आगन्तुकं - as विक्षेप
>  isn't present then. I'm ok with that too, but
>  would
>  > still contend that it is possible
>  to explain विक्षेप as आगन्तुक in
>  the
>  > manner described above, if the
>  context isn't सुषुप्ति.
>  >
>  > The purpose of the
>  example about the awareness of "I" in the
>  waking/dream
>  > states was merely to
>  establish the presence of आवरणं in those
>  states.
>  >
>  > The
>  example is a diversion from the main topic, but since you
>  had some
>  > objections to the example, I
>  thought I will clarify.
>  >
>  > The attribution of "I" the
>  sAkshi Atma to "I" associated with the sharIra
>  > (which is the object of the awareness) is
>  indeed विक्षेप, but it requires
>  > that साक्षी/आत्म
>  अज्ञानं be present for that
>  विक्षेप to happen.
>  >
>  > The mind should not have known that what
>  is denoted by the term "I" is the
>  > sAkshi the Atma (आवरणं), and
>  falsely believes "I" to be the 2 sharIras.
>  >
>  > The awareness of
>  "I" is विक्षेप, I wasn't
>  implying that the "I" that the
>  > mind is aware of is Atma.
>  >
>  > That was what I was
>  trying to say in shorthand - but the important thing
>  > was to establish that आवरण was
>  very much present in the waking state. It
>  > appears from your latest email that you
>  agree with that.
>  >
>  >
>  Regards,
>  > Venkatraghavan
>  >
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