[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Why only jagat is mithya and jeeva is brahman !!??

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Bhaskar ji,

<<But this does not mean jnAni’s body itself would vanish in thin air
alongwith jagat since his shareerAdhi upAdhi-s are mithyA.>>

Is seeing a mirage of water in sand, perception? By your logic, just
because one continues to see the water (even though one knows its only
sand), the water is real. Knowing it is a mirage does not make water
disappear, but does it's lack of disappearance preclude it's mithyAtvam?

<<If the jnAni himself is avidyA kalpita, if the jagat what he see itself
is avidyAkalpita, after the dawn of jnana in one jnAni this world would
have not been available for us alongwith him.  >>

Not true. Sunrise and sunset is always available to the eyes' perception,
but the sun does not move in reality. Even after knowing the truth about
the lack of reality of a sunrise or sunset, one continues to perceive it.
So onset of jnAna does not mean one stops "seeing" mithyA vastu - it means
that one realises that what one sees isn't real. Seeing is not proof of
reality.

JnAna arises in the mind, so it can only remove it's opposite, ajnAna, in
the same locus where it arises - viz the mind. According to advaita, the
world is a projection not of the mind, but of avidyA. So the rise of jnAna
in the mind which itself is a product of avidyA, does not destroy the
world, it only destroys the notion of reality ascribed to the world by the
mind.

With this I will shut up as promised :)
Regards,
Venkatraghavan

praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

1)      shAstram tu antyam pramANam says AchArya. He says that no pramANa,
pramEya, pramAtr bhedA is possible in Brahman.

Ø   Yes, prabhuji I agree, neha nAnAsti kiMchana declares shruti.

2)       jnAni loses his pramANA status, perception loses its pramANA
status and jagat loses its pramEya status after the onset of jnAna. That is
how brahmaivedam amrutam purastAt, should be understood.

>  Yes, jnAni loses his pramAtru status so the corresponding pramANa,
prameya, prama etc.  But this does not mean jnAni’s body itself would
vanish in thin air alongwith jagat since his shareerAdhi upAdhi-s are
mithyA.  What is mithyA or avidyA kalpita here is pramAtrutva, bhOktrutva,
katrutva of jnAni not jnAni himself.  If the jnAni himself is avidyA
kalpita, if the jagat what he see itself is avidyAkalpita, after the dawn
of jnana in one jnAni this world would have not been available for us
alongwith him.  That is not the case here, despite passing away of jnAni-s
over the centuries we are still perceiving this jagat !!  So, what does
this mean?? Jagat itself is not mithyA, perception that one has on jagat is
mithyA due to avidyA since excluding himself thinking that he is pramAtru,
bhOktru, jnAtru, kartru etc. ajnAni gives an independent existence to jagat
and for him jagat is asarvaM, abrahmam etc. But for the jnAni jagat is in
its kAryAkArarUpa brahman only because he knows the shruti siddhAnta that
brahman is the ONLY abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNa for this kAryAkAra jagat.

2) Even in vyavahAra, the adhishThAna of nAma rUpa can never be available
for perception, by your own logic.

>  It is not my logic, it is in everyone’s anubhava J nAma rUpAtmaka vikAra
jagat is pratyaksha pramANa gOchara whereas adhishtAnaM of  this jagat,
i.e. brahman is apratyaksha.

How is the anadhigatatvam of shruti preserved if perception reveals Brahman
as adhishThAnam?

Ø   By realizing the kAraNa svarUpa in seen nAma, rUpa kAryAkAra and
realizing the shruti pratipAdita siddhAnta that brahman is the upAdAna
kAraNa for this perceived jagat.  In pratyaksha you would still see the pot
(vikAra) but your drushti would always be on the ‘clay’ not on the vikAra
of clay.  And this is what shankara clarifies in sUtra bhAshya, (quoted
earlier ) : kAryAkArOpi kAraNasya Atma bhUta eva and there exists nothing
that can be labelled as ‘mithyA’ / asatyA : sata eva dvaitabhedena
anyathAgruhyamANatvAnnAsatvaM kasyachit kvachit.



If it did, one doesn't need shruti at all.

Ø  The pramANa of shruti required to get the pramANAntara jnana of
pratyaksha pramANa i.e. adhishtAna vastu of pratyaksha gOchara nAma rUpa
vyAkruta jagat.  Shruti promptly pointing its finger towards this jagat and
clarifying for this jagat only brahman is the antaryAmi as well as
upAdAna.



So one has to conclude that what is available for perception is only the
mithyA component of jagat, never it's adhishThAna.

Ø   I don’t know how you have come to this conclusion from your
observation!!  OTOH bhAshyakAra clarifies : na tu paramArthataH
AtmavyatirekeNa asti kiMchit and shruti declares sarvaM khalvidaM brahma,
tajjalaM iti shAnta upAseeta, idaM sarvaM yadayamAtma etc.

3)      Which brings me to the 3rd point. Considering  perception of nAma
rUpa as *perception* is valid only in vyavahAra - ie so long as they are
not understood as mithyA.

Ø   Do you mean to say jnAni who has realized his svarUpa would not
perceive the jagat at all!!??  Or his perception of jagat is mithyA??
Again what would be the perception of jnAni after realizing the svarUpa??
In bhAshyakAra’s own words : pUrvaM avidyayA asarva Aseet punaH vidyayA
avidyApanaye sarvO bhavati.  And further bhAshyakAra clarifies, yattu
sarvAtmabhAvAt arvAk vAlAgramAtramapi anyatvena drushyate nAhamasmeeti
tadavasthA avidyA.  Is it clear prabhuji, jnAni’s realization is not that I
am brahma and this jagat is mithyA and I would continue to see the ‘mithyA’
jagat, for him this jagat in its sadrUpa satyameva na anrutaM.  That which
was asarvaM for him prior to jnana would become ‘sarvaM’ and that ‘sarvaM’
is brahmamayaM only not mithyA.  And this is called jnAni’s bhUma drushti,
samyak drushti, sarvAtmabhAva.

4)      Once nAma rUpa is understood as mithyA, no pramA can be generated
for a mithyA vastu. The very definition of pramA is abAdhitArtha vastu
vishayaka jnAnam pramA. So if nAma rUpa is sublated, you cannot call it's
jnAnam pramA, and you cannot call the means of generating that jnAnam
pramANA.

Ø   Pls. see above, no place for mithyA in paramArtha sarvAtmabhAva.

So by 2 (anadhigatatvam), adhishThAna cannot be perceived, and by 3, nAma
rUpa perception is not perception at all.

By 1, AchArya himself relegates all pramANA prameya pramAtr vyavahAra only
until the generation of brahma jnAnam.

Ø   To the best of my ability I have shared my understanding on these
points prabhuji.  You are welcome to disagree with it.

With this I am going to stop and let you consider whatever you have read -
over 100 emails have been exchanged on the subject. If after reading all of
them you still feel your position is justified, I'm not sure there is much
further to say. All the best.

Ø   Thanks for your participation & spending your time in this discussion
prabhuji.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar