[Advaita-l] Shruti prAmANya and jnAna

[Ravi Kiran]

Namaste Venkatraghavan Ji

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Raghav ji,
>
> "My understanding of connection between svataHprAmAnyam and Apaurusheyatvam
> -"
>
> I sent an email earlier this morning talking of the link between svatah
> prAmANya and apaurusheyatva in pUrva mImAmsa / advaita matAs - hadn't
> realised that you had sent this mail. I am seeing this just now.
>
> In relation to your point "Apaurusheyatvam is important because the initial
> vRtti produced by shruti vAkya -s , i.e., the 'untested' artha grasped by
> each of us by shadArthasambandha is also instantaneously grasped as pramA
> rather than rejected as bhrama or saMshaya-sahita (doubt-ridden)." - there
> are two aspects here:
>
> 1) the status of shruti as pramANa
> 2) the acceptance of shruti tAtparya by the intellect
>
> While apaurusheyatva and svatah prAmANya confer shruti with prAmANya (1) ,
> that may be insufficient for most intellects to accept the message given by
> the shruti (2).
>
> To take the mirror example, even if one were to see a flat, clear mirror
> (apaurusheya, svatah prAmANya shruti) and one does not have any other means
> of knowing what one looks like, how do we know what is seen is the
> reflection of our own face? How do we know what our face looks like? To
> determine the correctness of the reflection, we have to employ various
> yuktis to satisfy ourselves - for example: *everything else that is seen
> with the eyes is the same as the reflection in the mirror*, therefore *when
> our face is reflected in the mirror that is what it must be like*, etc.
>
> Therefore, for aikya to be accepted as pramA


Isn't aikya and pramA one and the same or single event ( it it can be
called so) ?

The very experience of aikya (ekatA) is pramA and pramA generated is the
experience of aikya.

Is it possible to separate them (any manner/way) ?



> we need to be satisfied that
> shruti pramANa is nirdushTa through various means - understand the reasons
> for apaurusheyatva / svatah prAmANya for shruti (ie clearly know what is an
> assumption and what is logically inferrable for us to hold this position),
> what is the ultimate message of the shruti (tAtparya nirNaya), and once we
> know that aikya is the tAtparya,




> by what other means can we justify
> non-perceived aikya and reject perceived bheda - aikya sAdhaka / bheda
> bAdhaka yuktis etc  This I believe is the "testing" that Swamiji is
> referring to.
>

Can you pl elaborate the above para (with examples, if possible) ?



>
> To answer Sri Srinath Vedagarbha's question, the testing is not because
> Veda's do not have prAmANya, or that they do not have svatah prAmANya (ie
> shruti needs the support of other pramANAs to reveal the truth), it is so
> that the intellect is able to understand a) why shruti is pramANa b) if so,
> what is the message of shruti c) how to reconcile that message with
> perception of everyday reality.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
> >
> > You had referred to the mirror analogy. Just a idea here...
> > My understanding of connection between svataHprAmAnyam and
> Apaurusheyatvam
> > -
> >
> > Apaurusheyatvam is important because the initial vRtti produced by shruti
> > vAkya -s , i.e., the 'untested' artha grasped by each of us by
> > shadArthasambandha is also instantaneously grasped as pramA rather than
> > rejected as bhrama or saMshaya-sahita (doubt-ridden).
> >
> > We don't doubt the mirror because we believe the mirror is flat (veda is
> > apauruSheya) and not concave etc., as in a mirror in an amusement park
> > where there is an agenda to distort and amuse. Even so any pauruSheya
> vAkya
> > can be doubted even as it is heard, like we doubt a mirror in an
> amusement
> > park. So saMshaya rahita pramA may not arise when i am standing in front
> of
> > a mirror with unknown topology or listening to a pauruSheya vAkya.
> >
> > The Apta case is taken care of because *by definition*, one who is part
> of
> > the advaita vedAntic teaching tradition is an Apta. His vAkya is only
> > anuvAda of shruti.
> >
> > Om
> > Raghav
> >
> > On 05-Oct-2016 10:11 am, "Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > Namaste,
> > In addition to what Praveenji said, where pramANa leads to a conclusion
> > which is  apparently contradictory to what one gets from other pramANas,
> > one necessarily has to adopt yukti to determine which is correct.
> >
> > This does not make the pramANa  paratah - only determine which pramANa
> has
> > been applied incorrectly.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> > On 5 Oct 2016 4:26 a.m., "Praveen R. Bhat via Advaita-l" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Namaste Srinathji,
> > >
> > > On 5 Oct 2016 1:47 am, "Srinath Vedagarbha via Advaita-l" <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:46 AM, श्रीमल्ललितालालितः via Advaita-l <
> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Another thing to consider, there are two types of prAmANya, tested
> > and
> > > > > otherwise.
> > > > > Tested one needs all what I said. Untested is svataH and is saved
> by
> > > > > apauruSheyatva.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > There are no such thing as two types of prAmANya. It is either
> prAmANya
> > > or
> > > > aprAmANya.
> > >
> > > If a person has jaundice and sees the world yellow, does his sight have
> > > pramANya or does it have aprAmANya? And how will you land there without
> > > testing?
> > >
> > > Moreover, advaitins reach advaita by tAtparyanirNaya, which is testing
> of
> > > prAmANya. Else it would be blind faith which takes all contradictory
> > > statements of shruti as-is and then one is likely to lose even that
> > faith.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > >
> > > For assistance, contact:
> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>