[Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?

[Kripa Shankar]

 Namaste 

You have summarised all points very nicely. Just adding a point about Advaita and Neo-Advaita. 

Sadashiva Brahmendra was an Advaitin. Sai baba/RK Paramahamsa/Vivekananda/Ramana were Neo-Advaitins.

An Advaitin sticks to the rules of conduct as per the scriptures. As Krishna says in the Gita, Scriptures are the ultimate authority. 

A Neo-Advaitin says Advaita is universal and that many cultures/religions across the world says the same thing. So they claim that Christ, Buddha etc all were jivanmuktas! Because of such a claim, they don't deem it necessary to observe the rules of conduct (Varna, Ashrama or any prescribed Dharma). 
‎
They find the Scriptures to be regressive and try to class those ardent followers of Vedas as radicals, all the while being passive aggressive themselves. 

This is ‎from my own observation. I haven't seen any of these new age gurus but I have their works to see. I only know about the person by their works. My observations are based only upon that. Further, a person is judged by the company he/she keeps. 

Regards 
Kripa 

‎---‎
Vyasaya Vishnu roopaya Vyasa roopaya Vishnave 
Namo vai Brahma nidhaye Vasishtaya namo namaha 
  Original Message  
From: श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
Sent: Tuesday 20 September 2016 9:49 PM
To: Kripa Shankar; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta; Bhaskar YR
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?

It appears that there are few options available:
1. Ramana was a GYAnI
2. He was not a GYAnI

BTW, why not make it clear that what do we mean by the word GYAna here and what are it's means?

We have to think about the proof of him being GYAnI or signs of the same.

Once we establish that he was indeed a GYAnI, we can go further to think about his teachings, either vague or clear.

Then I'll also like to know the definition of advaitin and neo-advaitin, so that I can try to categorise him as any one of them.

Till now we have one person telling that he was not a person endowed with brahmaGYAna, while others are assuming that he was indeed because someone showed some respect to him.
To me respect from other is not a sign of GYAna, but is common for any good quality. Ramana had many good qualities, including tyAga which maThAdhIsha-s don't possess. So, respect from one of maThAdhIsha-s, who is a sannyAsI and who is expected to be sarva-tyAgI but can't do, may be just a sign of greater degree of aparigraha in respected. 
Whatever signs you see in him, are not essentially signs of GYAna. They can be found in a dvaitI who posseses bhakti and it's means. Don't we see many vaiShNava-s tyAgI-s or calm as sea?
I'm sure that in advaita-l group, we talk about GYAna of oneness which is generated by shAstra only. I'm quite sure that just asking who am I is not enough to ascertain nature of Atman, although it helps us do anvaya-vyatireka to decide that Atman is not dRshya. This discrimination is not enough to help us decide that we are not tainted by relation of dRshya. We may imagine that we are not tainted, but that is not a proof. So, I think that Ramana stands close to sA~Nkhya-s, and yogI-s compared to advaitin-s.
Unless GYAna of Ramana is ascertained, we can't imagine that he had done any sAdhana in previous births.
Mere hearing of praNava or some mantra-s which eulogise knowledge of oneness, is not enough to generate GYAna - as is evident in our case. So, we can't claim that they caused the brahmaGYAna in his case too. Once the existence of result, GYAna, is decided; we should run to find it's cause, ignoring how much small or ineffective it may be for us, so called ashama-adhikArI-s.
According to me there are only two divisions - advaitins, who have knowledge of oneness which dawns due to shruti; and dvaitins, who are ignorant of oneness, owing to lack of shruti, vichAra, etc. Even people striving for dawn of knowledge fall in second category, according to this division. How could a person who has not ascertained advaita, be called advaitin? So, according to me even a faithful of advaita who lacks GYAna or who is inclined towards advaita for unknown/vague reasons or who lacks means of such knowledge, is neo-advaitin. People, about whom we can't decide anything also fall in this category. To play safe and not to indulge in hating others, I'll say that such people are impressive, but I can't decide that they are actually GYAnI or not, and hence I'll keep them in neo group. No disrespect. They have good qualities. I'll take them. For the portion where uncertainty lies, that is GYAna, I'm also not willing to delude myself with overload of respect(mostly by shutting the ability to critically think) towards people, whoever they are, maThAdhipatI-s, sannyasI-s, tyAgI-s, shAnta-s, jIvanmukta-s or whatever their follower term them. 

  इति 
श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
ललितालालितः ॥
www.lalitaalaalitah.com

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 at 18:40 Kripa Shankar via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
Namaste Bhaskar

I request you to kindly read the article after you reach home or open the link on your phone. The author has credibility and it is a well researched article with ample references. He has summarised all the points succinctly. Like Kalidasa said everything old is not supreme, everything new is not bad. Same way everything on the internet is not trash. ‎

We are in agreement then. He was not a rigid follower of orthodox Advaita tradition. We ‎can label that however we want. 

Since you have asked my personal opinion : 
1) Ramana got famous by rumours, hear says and media coverage. Further owing to post colonial effect, we Indians accept blindly whatever the white man says (not being a racist, but indicating that Indians subconsciously have a bit of self loathing). So white man's words are Apta vakyas for us. 
2) The  man who was responsible for the 'discovery' of Ramana was a dubious person. 
3) Most of Ramana's teachings were written by his associates.
4) Ramanashram is an international organisation with many centres all over the world. How is it sustainable? 
5) Not to be hurtful or bitter towards anyone, but his teachings are vague, hollow and mostly answers the deep philosophical questions with another question.  It cannot be compared to Shankara even in wildest fantasy. For eg: 'Insert any question ' - Who are you, who is asking the question? To whom does the question belong? Or something like - There is nothing to be taught, no nothing, just keep asking who the heck you are. Or abide in yourself. 
6) lastly, Ramana often quotes from Tao, Christ, Osho etc but never Shankara or other old Rishis. 

Regards 
Kripa 

Vyasaya Vishnu roopaya Vyasa roopaya Vishnave 
Namo vai Brahma nidhaye Vasishtaya namo namaha 
  Original Message  
From: Bhaskar YR
Sent: Tuesday 20 September 2016 5:56 PM
To: Kripa Shankar; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: RE: [Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?

praNAms Sri Kripa Shankar prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Due to restrictions in accessibility of internet I am not able to open the link you provided at my office desk top. Anyway, instead of depending too much on web data, what do you think of yourself about ramaNa's teaching and why do you think his teaching goes against Advaita ?? can you share your thoughts in your own words prabhuji?? Kindly note I am not saying ramaNa's teaching and methodology is strictly in line with traditional teaching and sAdhana, but to my knowledge I hardly find any difference in ramaNa's teaching with that of Advaita. In short, though bhagavaan ramaNa was not a rigid follower of orthodox Advaita tradition, his teaching is NOT alien to Advaita.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar


-----Original Message-----
From: Advaita-l [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org] On Behalf Of Kripa Shankar via Advaita-l
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 5:49 PM
To: Advaita discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?

‎Namaste 

Interesting article about Ramana. This mig‎ht explain so many aspects about Neo-Advaita and the confusion around. Further, this corresponds to the recent campaign of Rajiv Malhotra. This may also explain why Ramana is saying there is no reincarnation. 

https://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/atma-jyoti-ashram-sannyasis-or-snake-oil-salesmen-swami-devananda-saraswati/

‎Regards
Kripa 

‎---
Vyasaya Vishnu roopaya Vyasa roopaya Vishnave Namo vai Brahma nidhaye Vasishtaya namo namaha
  Original Message
From: Bhaskar YR
Sent: Tuesday 20 September 2016 4:44 PM
To: Kripa Shankar; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: RE: [Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?

praNAms Sri Kripa Shankar prabhuji
Hare Krishna

My query i‎s simple. There are so many concepts like shrAddha, Creation theory, Karma etc 

> yes, in the shruti, dharma shAstra etc. we will find plenty of references with regard to shrAddhAdi karma, creation, karma etc. for the jignAsu-s who are yet to realize that ultimate truth that there is no creation, no jeeva, nor mukti nor bandha.

Why pick up reincarnation, why mix up vyavahara and paramaartha and why to take pain to explain again that nothing holds in absolute terms when it is said already many times. Kim punaha?

> don’t you think shruti and bhAshya themselves an admixture of these dual viewpoints?? 're-incarnation' is one of those topics. And in this particular context ramaNa might have taken this topic and clarified his stand from the highest view point. To do apavAda first we have to know what is adhyArOpita, is it not prabhuji. Kindly see kArika maraNe sambhave chaiva gatyAgamanayOrapi and shankara bhAshya on that it would clear from this that exit, going away, reincarnating are all from the stand point of imputation and nothing real in 'real' sense.
‎
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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