[Advaita-l] DSV in the advaitasiddhi: adhyAsa is substantiated

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Sri Ravi Kiran ji,

The typical prakriya involved in the perception of a bhrama is that the
ajnAna located in the consciousness delimited by the object is the upAdAna
kAraNa for the bhrama.

Here the siddhikAra wants to establish that adhyAsa can be substantiated in
DSV too. So he proved that shukti ajnAna is the upAdAna kAraNa for shukti
rajata bhrama in DSV.
Now,
1) The drishti srishti prakriyA does not differentiate between vyAvahArika
and prAtibhAsika satya.
2) Thus shukti also must have some ajnAna as its upAdAna kAraNa.
3) Because of jnAtaikasatta in DSV, the jnAna of a vastu also implies its
existence.
4) Thus shukti jnAna also can be said to be the upAdAna kAraNa of shukti.
5) Therefore ajnAna (from 2) = jnAna (from 4).
6) Because it would be absurd to say shukti ajnAna = shukti jnAna, or some
unrelated object's ajnAna, say, ghaTa ajnAna = shukti jnAna, we have to
admit the ajnAna from 2 is brahma ajnAna.
7) If we do that, we do differentiate between vyAvahArika vastu which has
brahma ajnAna as its upAdAna kAraNa and prAtibhAsika which has
brahmAtirikta ajnAna as its upAdAna kAraNa. This is contrary to 1.

Not only that, as the upAdAna kAraNa is different, the bAdhaka jnAna for
vyAvahArika (brahma jnAna) is also different from the bAdhaka jnAna for
prAtibhAsika (shukti jnAna).

How is this any different from SDV, which uses the same reasons to justify
sattA traividhyam?

Regards,
Venkatraghavan

On 21 Aug 2017 3:37 a.m., "Ravi Kiran" <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste  Sri Venkatraghavan Ji
>
> One clarification below:
>
> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the lovely explanation, Anand ji.
>>
>> If we accept shukti ajnAna as the kAraNa for rajata, what is the kAraNa
>> for
>> shukti?
>
>
>> Is it shukti ajnAna or brahma ajnAna?
>>
>
> shukti ajnAna (and rajata jnAna) is kAraNa for rajata, but how is, shukti
> ajnAna be kAraNa for shukti perception/experience, or to consider, shukti
> ajnAna as one of the options above ? (in general, ajnAna of a thing be the
> cause for that thing? )
>
> Isn't it shukti jnAna kAraNa for shukti ? (though,  brahma ajnAna is the
> kAraNa for *all* that is seen in DSV)
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>> a) *If it is shukti ajnAna*, then there are three things we must consider
>> 1) as the same ajnAna can lead to either result, what leads to shukti in
>> one instance and rajata in another?
>> 2) How does the nedam rajatam bAdha happen, because both the shukti and
>> rajatam have the same kAraNa, shukti ajnAna? To explain, I am seeing a
>> bhrama rajatam now due to shukti ajnAna. Normally, as long as the kAraNa
>> exists, the kArya must exist too. So as long as shukti ajnAna exists,
>> shukti rajatam must exist too. As shukti ajnAna is kAraNa for shukti too,
>> then how does the same cause destroy one effect and create the other?
>> 3) if shukti ajnAna leads to shukti, and that shukti leads to shukti
>> jnAna,
>> then as shukti jnAna and shukti ajnAna are virodhi, it is like saying the
>> cause creates an effect that destroys itself. Is such a thing possible, is
>> it not a upajIvya virodham?
>>
>> b) *If it is brahma ajnAna*, then as shukti is born out of brahma ajnAna
>> and shukti rajata is born out shukti ajnAna, then it does differentiate
>> between the bhrama and bAdhaka jnAna pair, and the shukti rajata and
>> shukti
>> pair. The first element of each pair is prAtibhAsika, the second element
>> vyAvahArika.
>>
>> Some things to consider.
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>> On 20 Aug 2017 4:45 a.m., "Anand Hudli via Advaita-l" <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> Shri Venkatraghavanji,
>>
>> >>
>> Excellent post. If the shukti was not existing when the rajatam was seen,
>> then is it shukti ajnAna that leads to rajata bhrama? Or is it brahma
>> ajnAna?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> shukti-ajnAna does lead to the bhrama of rajata, although both rajata and
>> the bAdhakajnAna "nedaM rajatam" are prAtibhAsika. In fact, the
>> pUrvapakShin raises another objection based on this, to which the answer
>> given is that the bAdhakajnAna does not have to be of a higher order of
>> reality to cancel the bAdhya.
>>
>> >>
>> Alternatively, given we are in  drishTi sriShTi prakriyA, is it drishTi
>> that
>> leads to shukti rajata sriShTi, and not shukti ajnAna? Thus as far as this
>> prakriyA is concerned, there is no difference between shukti rajatam and
>> rajatam.
>> >>
>> It seems to me that due to the prAtibhAsika nature of everything (save
>> Brahman), the "sting" is taken out of adhyAsa. It is almost like bhrama
>> jnAna just being replaced by the bAdhaka jnAna, having no "Aha!" moment of
>> realization. This is perhaps explained by the fact that a DSV follower is
>> already an advanced sAdhaka, very close to realizing Brahman. For such a
>> person, negating a mundane illusion such as silver-nacre does not hold
>> much
>> value. The nacre is not any more real than the illusory silver.
>> PrakAshAnanda has a different explanation on page 170 of the English
>> translation. According to him, the person in question never sees the
>> illusory object, example snake in place of a rope. He sees the rope but
>> due
>> to being "bhrAnta", he thinks it is a snake. To the question, "Did he
>> never
>> see a snake at all?" (tatkiM sarpaH na pratipanna eva?), he answers,
>> "Undoubtedly!" But this against experience, since one feels he/she saw a
>> snake where in fact, there was a rope. To this, PrakAshAnanda says "this
>> is
>> against experience alright but experience of a deluded person." So there
>> is
>> no harm done. It is only when something is against experience of an
>> "abhrAnta" person, it is a problem.
>>
>> Anand
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