[Advaita-l] Fwd: A question on PariNAma and vivarta

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Sir - while you are waring ring, you  are wearing it because it is gold, sustained by gold and can merge back to gold.  If it is wrought iron, even if it is a ring that fits your fingers you would not like wear it.
Hence it ring you like to wear is gold only and wants to preserve it if possible. 

Hari Om!Sadananda

      From: D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 To: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 12:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: A question on PariNAma and vivarta
   
You cannot wear a lump of gold on your finger as you can a ring. Looking
from the point of utility the lump of gold and the ring are different. A
real transformation has taken place and this transformation requires a
goldsmith's effort. So is the case with a lump of earth and a pot.

For me real example of vivarta is rajjusarpa bhranti.



regards,
Sarma.

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 8:02 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Venkatraghavanji - PraNAms
>
> You have zeroed-in on the very purpose of the three examples scripture
> provided to establish that the creation itself is vivarta since
>
>
> a) Brahman being infinite cannot undergo real modification to create the
> universe.
>
> 2. Brahman is still the upaadaana kaarana - yatovaa imaani bhuttani
> jaayante ... shruti declares.
>
>
> 3. Only way to account both 1 and 2 is to introduce the concept of vivarta
> which I call it as transformation-less transformation - that is apparent
> transformation.- vaachaarambhanam vikaaraH.
>
> 4. Gold example provides clear insight into this - yatova imaani
> aabhaanaani jaayante, and most importantly, sustence and laya .. tat
> swarnam. Hence it is vivarta.
>
>
> 5. Parinaama applies only to transformations within the jagat - ring
> transforming into bangle, etc. and 1 and 2 cannot be accounted by parinaama
> since sthiti and laya are not possible - Vidyaranya clearly states this in
> the ch. 13.
>
>
> 6. We do not need some intricate logic to prove that mud and gold
> trasformation is parinaama.
>
> 7. I can simply prove that everything in the world also vivarta - since
> they are nothing mere assemblage of fundamental particles -
> electrons-protons and neutrons or even more fundamental particles - from
> which all objects came, by which they are sustained and into which they go
> back.
>
>
> 8. The strength of Advaita is to differentiate the ontological status of
> Brahman from the world of plurality - Same applies to the Ontological
> status of gold in relation to ornaments or mud in relation to pots and
> cannot simply apply this to mild to curds without using some concocted
> logic of fundamental particles as the starting point.
>
>
> 9. Further hair splitting arguments will not lead to any more new
> knowledge if we understand simply that Brahman to world transformation is
> only vivarta or apparent transformation as indicated by the
> vaachaarambhanam sruti and tatasta lakshana  -  jnamaadyasya yataH.
>
>
> 10. Now  I am reveling on the beauty of Vidyaranyas  exposition of how
> maaya shakti acts as universal force diverging into many others that we are
> familiar.
>
> Hari Om!
>
> Sadananda
>
>      From: Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
> vedanta.org>
>
>
> Going to the broader question of what the vAcArambhaNa shruti is trying to
> establish - is it the absence of independent existence of kArya from
> kAraNa, or is it to establish that jagat is a vivarta of Brahman?
>
> The bhAshya to BS 1.4.23 gives a clue. The sUtra itself is helpful in the
> current discussion प्रकृतिश्च प्रतिज्ञादृष्टांतानुपरोधात् - the drishTAnta
> and the pratijnA must not be in contradiction, hence Brahman must be the
> material cause too.
>
>
>
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