[Advaita-l] Fwd: Fwd: A question on PariNAma and vivarta

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

Nowadays we are finding some Advaitis have become Jagat Satyatva Vadis
and are standing up and objecting to Jagan Mithyatva Vada of Advaita.
They are saying Jagat is a Parinama of Brahman and this means it is
Satya only like Brahman. They are questioning why Jagat is Mithya when
everything is Brahman only and Jeeva is also Brahman. Why only Jagat
is Mithya??? For all these mistaken Jagat Satyatva Vadis the famous
Bellamkonda Rama Raya has dealt a heavy crushing blow in his book
Advaita Anya Mata Khandana. Here I am giving some points from Khandana
of SatkaaryaVaada and Asatkaaryavaada. Parinama Vada comes under
Satkaaryavaada only.

अथ सत्कार्यवादी प्रत्यवतिष्ठते - असतस्सत उत्पत्तेरयुक्तत्वात्सत एव
सदुत्पद्यते - मृदादेस्सत्पदार्थाद्घटादिसत्कार्योत्पत्तिदर्शनात् ।

Now the Satkaaryavaadi stands up and objects. It is not correct to say
Sat will be produced by Asat. Therefore Sat is produced by Sat only.
We see example - from real mud a real Pot is produced.

ततश्च सतो ब्रह्मण उदितमिदं जगत्सदेवेति -  Therefore the World rising
from Sat Brahman is Sat only.

चेत् मैवम् । सत उत्पत्तिरित्ययुक्तं - सतो घटस्य पुनरुत्पत्त्यदर्शनात् ।

Rama Raya says - This is not correct. Nobody is seeing real Pot
existing before and again getting produced.

पूर्वमसन् हि पुत्रादिरुत्पन्नो दृश्यते, न हि कोऽपि पुत्रोत्पत्तेः
प्राक् मम पुत्रोऽस्तीति मन्यते ।

Another example. Nobody will agree a son was existing before he is
produced. Example when you marry a girl and plan to have a child that
child is not existing as her child anywhere before.

नच कार्यमुत्पत्तेः प्राक् कारणरूपेणास्तीति वाच्यं, उत्पत्तेः प्राक्
कार्यस्यैवाभावे कथं पुनस्तस्य कारणरूपेणावस्थानम् ?

You cannot say the Effect is existing in Cause Form before production.
Because that Effect is Absent before production. How can it be in
Cause Form?

यदुक्तं कारणद्रव्यस्यैवावस्थान्तरापत्तिः कार्यस्योत्पत्तिरिति
तदस्माकमिष्टमेव -  कारणस्य क्षीरादेः कार्यदध्याद्यात्मना
परिणामदर्शनात् ।

If you said changing of Cause Material into another state and that is
production of Effect this is acceptable to us also. Because we can see
Cause Milk changing to Effect Curds.

नाप्यसत्कार्यवादसिद्धिः - असतामुत्पत्तिरूपायोगात् । अन्यथा
शशशृङ्गस्याप्युत्पत्त्यवश्यम्भावात् । अतः सद्द्रव्यस्यासद्द्रव्यस्य वा
उत्पत्त्ययोगान्मिथ्यैव कार्यमुत्पद्यत इति मिथ्याकार्यवादसिद्धिः ।
 मिथ्याभूत एव घट उत्पन्नः रज्जुसर्पवदित्यस्मत्सिद्धान्तात् ।

Asatkaaryavaada is not proved. Asat cannot produce something.
Otherwise we can say Rabbit Horns can produce something. Therefore
Production of something cannot be from Sat or Asat Material  and
Effect produced is Mithyaa only. That means it is Not Sat and Not
Asat. It is Anirvachaneeya.

तस्मात् सतो ब्रह्मण उत्पन्नमपीदं जगद्रूपं कार्यं मिथ्याभूतमेव ।

Therefore this World produced from Sat Brahman is Mithyaa only.
Anirvachaneeya only.


On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 7:20 PM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> Namaste Sri Venkatraghavan Ji,
>
>
>
> Reg  << So, taking these two as the definitions of vivarta and pariNAma,
> where there is vivarta, there is pariNAma, whereas where there is pariNAma,
> vivarta need not be there. >>,
>
>
>
> They cannot be so defined. Rope-snake is an example for vivarta, there is
> no parinama.
>
>
>
> However I would prefer to have a verbatim translation of  the entire
> passage which could then form the basis for the discussion. I am unable to
> provide the same. Either you could do so or perhaps Sri Praveen Ji could
> .
>  Any other member also  is welcome to do so. If considered necessary, the
> words vyapaka and vyapya could be just left as such or translated as
> applicable in the context.
>
>
>
> We could continue with the discussion following this.
>
>
>
> Regards
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh