[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: Question/Clarification on Chanting Vaidika mantras

[Rajesh Benjwal]

 Namaste,

When we chant a mantra then even we do not know the meaning it will produce
the result but it is not the same that we are performing a yajna and we
don't know the meaning of what we are saying as mantra because it is said
in अर्थसंग्रह: that क्रतुविधिनामर्थज्ञानापेक्षणीय, in a yajna it is
expected from याज्ञिक that he is अर्थज्ञानवान. So a student of Veda must
learn his वेदशाखा with अर्थज्ञानम्. We should not neglect this part.


Thanks

2017-11-06 12:44 GMT+05:30 D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:

> Here we are hairsplitting about the conditions under which vedic mantras
> can be chanted.
> At Siddhi Vinayaka Cultural Center in Fremont, California, USA an Atirudra
> yagam has benn performed
> from October 26 to November 5. The fly paper says that it was performed
> with blessings of Srigeri and Kanchi Acharyas.
>
> regards,
> Sarma.
>
> 2017-11-06 12:23 GMT+05:30 D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ <dvnsarma at gmail.com
> >:
>
> > It seems that an atirudra yaga has been performed in Freemont,
> California,
> > USA.
> >
> > regards,
> > Sarma.
> >
> > 2017-11-06 8:08 GMT+05:30 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:
> >
> >> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan via
> >> Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The meanings can be changed even by non-svara mistakes such as dadAti
> >> vs.
> >> > dadhAti etc. Yes, there could be many examples, but the question is
> >> whether
> >> > there is a problem if the meaning does not change. This is in the case
> >> when
> >> > the svara is not said, but could match up to classical Sanskrit and
> make
> >> > the same sense. However, since the veda-s are aparuSheya, it's not a
> >> > sensible question to ask whether the vedic passage would make the same
> >> > sense when the svara was not recited, given that classical Sanskrit
> does
> >> > not have svara-s. The lack of svara-s/wrong svara-s makes it NOT the
> >> veda
> >> > and cannot give the requisite result, since the svaras are aparuSheya
> as
> >> > well. In some cases, it could convey the opposite meaning, but even if
> >> does
> >> > not, it cannot bear the same fruit.
> >> >
> >> > Any chanting not associated with particular results would come under
> the
> >> > directive svAdhyAyo adhyetavyaH, which is a nitya karma. As I
> explained
> >> > previously, as per advaita there is no apUrva.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Advaita does not accept apūrva as a substitute for Īśvara. But the
> concept
> >> of 'adṛṣtam' is well accepted:
> >>
> >>  स्मार्तश्च देवयज्ञादिः, स्वाध्यायः ऋग्वेदाद्यध्ययनम् अदृष्टार्थम् ।
> >> [BGB 16.1]  The svādhyāya will generate adṛṣṭa phala. This could happen
> in
> >> this life or any future life.
> >>
> >> सर्वकर्माणि दृष्टादृष्टार्थानि मयि ईश्वरे संन्यस्य     [BGB 18.57]
> >>
> >> शोभनचरितानि आम्नायाद्यविरुद्धानि, तान्येव त्वया उपास्यानि
> >> अदृष्टार्थान्यनुष्ठेयानि
> >>   [Tai.Up.Bh.1.4] One should emulate the acts of the Acharya that are
> >> non-contradictory to Veda, etc. that produce adrshta phala.  In other
> >> words, the karma done now will remain in a certain form till it produces
> >> tangible result. This intangible form in which it remains is called
> >> adrshta.
> >>
> >> फलमत उपपत्तेः ॥ ३८ ॥
> >>  भाष्यम्
> >> <http://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/BS?page=
> >> 3&id=BS_C03_S02_V38_B1&hlBhashya=%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%A8%
> >> E0%A4%AF#bhashya-BS_C03_S02_V38>
> >>  जनय
> >> तस्यैव ब्रह्मणो व्यावहारिक्याम् ईशित्रीशितव्यविभागावस्थायाम् , अयमन्यः
> >> स्वभावो वर्ण्यते । यदेतत् इष्टानिष्टव्यामिश्रलक्षणं कर्मफलं संसारगोचरं
> >> त्रिविधं प्रसिद्धं जन्तूनाम् , किमेतत् कर्मणो भवति, आहोस्विदीश्वरादिति
> >> भवति
> >> विचारणा । तत्र तावत्प्रतिपाद्यते — फलम् अतः ईश्वरात् भवितुमर्हति । कुतः
> ?
> >> उपपत्तेः ; स हि सर्वाध्यक्षः सृष्टिस्थितिसंहारान् विचित्रान् विदधत्
> >> देशकालविशेषाभिज्ञत्वात् कर्मिणां कर्मानुरूपं फलं सम्पादयतीत्युपपद्यते ;
> >> कर्मणस्तु अनुक्षणविनाशिनः कालान्तरभावि फलं भवतीत्यनुपपन्नम् ,
> >> अभावाद्भावानुत्पत्तेः । स्यादेतत् — कर्म विनश्यत् स्वकालमेव स्वानुरूपं
> फलं
> >> जनयित्वा विनश्यति, तत्फलं कालान्तरितं कर्त्रा भोक्ष्यत इति ; तदपि न
> >> परिशुध्यति, प्राग्भोक्तृसम्बन्धात् फलत्वानुपपत्तेः — यत्कालं हि यत् सुखं
> >> दुःखं वा आत्मना भुज्यते, तस्यैव लोके फलत्वं प्रसिद्धम् ; न हि
> >> असम्बद्धस्यात्मना सुखस्य दुःखस्य वा फलत्वं प्रतियन्ति लौकिकाः ।
> अथोच्येत —
> >> मा भूत्कर्मानन्तरं फलोत्पादः, कर्मकार्यादपूर्वात्फलमुत्पत्स्यत इति,
> तदपि
> >> नोपपद्यते, अपूर्वस्याचेतनस्य काष्ठलोष्टसमस्य चेतनेनाप्रवर्तितस्य
> >> प्रवृत्त्यनुपपत्तेः, तदस्तित्वे च प्रमाणाभावात् । अर्थापत्तिः प्रमाणमिति
> >> चेत् , न, ईश्वरसिद्धेरर्थापत्तिक्षयात् ॥ ३८ ॥
> >>  In the above sutra bhashya, Shankara denies the idea of apūrva as a
> >> substitute for Ishwara as phaladātā.  The idea of adrshtam is admissible
> >> in
> >> Advaita. This is reasonable since it is seen that the karma done now
> does
> >> not always produce the effect immediately.
> >> *In the Kenopanishat bhashyam 3.12 too there is a discussion on this
> >> topic:*
> >>
> >>  सति कर्मणः फलहेतुत्वे किमीश्वराधिककल्पनयेति न नित्यस्येश्वरस्य
> >> नित्यसर्वज्ञशक्तेः फलहेतुत्वं चेति चेत् , न ; कर्मण
> >> एवोपभोगवैचित्र्याद्युपपद्यते । कस्मात् ? कर्तृतन्त्रत्वात्कर्मणः ।
> >> चितिमत्प्रयत्ननिर्वृत्तं हि कर्म तत्प्रयत्नोपरमादुपरतं सद्देशान्तरे
> >> कालान्तरे वा नियतनिमित्तविशेषापेक्षं कर्तुः फलं जनयिष्यतीति न
> >> युक्तमनपेक्ष्यान्यदात्मनः प्रयोक्तृ, कर्तैव फलकाले प्रयोक्तेति चेत् ,
> मया
> >> निवर्तितोऽसि त्वां प्रयोक्ष्ये फलाय यदात्मानुरूपं फलमिति न
> >> देशकालनिमित्तविशेषानभिज्ञत्वात् । यदि हि कर्ता देशादिविशेषाभिज्ञः
> >> सन्स्वातन्त्र्येण कर्म नियुञ्ज्यात् , ततोऽनिष्टफलस्याप्रयोक्ता स्यात् ।
> न
> >> च
> >> निर्निमित्तं तदनिच्छयात्मसमवेतं तच्चर्मवद्विकरोति कर्म । न
> >> चात्मकृतमकर्तृसमवेतमयस्कान्तमणिवदाक्रष्टृ भवति,
> >> प्रधानकर्तृसमवेतत्वात्कर्मणः । भूताश्रयमिति चेत् , न ; साधनत्वात् ।
> >> कर्तृक्रियायाः साधनभूतानि भूतानि क्रियाकालेऽनुभूतव्यापाराणि समाप्तौ च
> >> हलादिवत्कर्त्रा परित्यक्तानि न फलं कालान्तरे कर्तुमुत्सहन्ते । न हि हलं
> >> क्षेत्राद्व्रीहीन्गृहं प्रवेशयति । भूतकर्मणोश्चाचेतनत्वात्स्वतः
> >> प्रवृत्त्यनुपपत्तिः । वायुवदिति चेत् , न ; असिद्धत्वात् । न हि
> >> वायोरचितिमतः
> >> स्वतः प्रवृत्तिः सिद्धा, रथादिष्वदर्शनात् । शास्त्रात्कर्मण एवेति चेत् —
> >> शास्त्रं हि क्रियातः फलसिद्धिमाह नेश्वरादेः ‘स्वर्गकामो यजेत’ इत्यादि ।
> न
> >> च
> >> प्रमाणाधिगतत्वादानर्थक्यं युक्तम् । न चेश्वरास्तित्वे प्रमाणान्तरमस्तीति
> >> चेत् , न ; दृष्टन्यायहानानुपपत्तेः । क्रिया हि द्विविधा दृष्टफला
> अदृष्टफला
> >> च । दृष्टफलापि द्विविधा अनन्तरफला कालान्तरफला च । अनन्तरफला
> गतिभुजिलक्षणा
> >> ।
> >> कालान्तरफला च कृषिसेवादिलक्षणा । तत्रानन्तरफला फलापवर्गिण्येव ।
> >> कालान्तरफला
> >> तु उत्पन्नप्रध्वंसिनी । आत्मसेव्याद्यधीनं हि कृषिसेवादेः फलं यतः । न
> >> चोभयन्यायव्यतिरेकेण स्वतन्त्रं कर्म ततो वा फलं दृष्टम् । तथा च
> >> कर्मफलप्राप्तौ न दृष्टन्यायहानमुपपद्यते । तस्माच्छान्ते यागादिकर्मणि
> >> नित्यः
> >> कर्तृकर्मफलविभागज्ञ ईश्वरः सेव्यादिवद्यागाद्यनुरूपफलदातोपपद्यते । स
> >> चात्मभूतः सर्वस्य सर्वक्रियाफलप्रत्ययसाक्षी नित्यविज्ञानस्वभावः
> >> संसारधर्मैरसंस्पृष्टः
> >>
> >> *Here too, the adrshta, that operates in the condition where Ishwara is
> >> accepted, is admitted by the bhashyakāra and not in the absence of
> >> Ishwara.*
> >>
> >> *regards*
> >> *subbu*
> >>
> >> >
> >> > In rituals/karma-s there are a number of prAyashcitta karma-s meant
> for
> >> > expiation. As far as svAdhyAya goes, there isn't any, but the right
> >> effort
> >> > has to be made. Most people barely make any effort to learn the right
> >> > svara-s. If the right effort is made and it's not for a specific
> >> purpose,
> >> > samarpaNam to nArAyaNa should be good enough. But the key is to
> actually
> >> > make the proper effort. That's my understanding.
> >> >
> >> > I am not aware of yati-dharma-s. It's not prohibited for them from
> >> chanting
> >> > veda-s, though it's not an obligatory ritual for them.
> >> >
> >> > Rama
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
> >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Namaste Rama ji
> >> > >  Thank you for your inputs. You have researched this topic deeply
> and
> >> I
> >> > am
> >> > > taking the liberty of asking a few doubts on chanting.
> >> > >
> >> > > Regarding meaning being changed by change in svara - I have a doubt.
> >> Are
> >> > > there other examples other than the stock example of
> >> > indrashatrurvardhate?
> >> > >
> >> > > I remember being told that the above indrashatru logic is extendable
> >> to
> >> > > other cases of a word being interpreted either as a bahuvrIhi or
> >> > tatpuruSha
> >> > > based on accents. Based on pANinIya shikShA? But don't recollect the
> >> > > details.
> >> > >
> >> > > Also are there any details in shikShA about what other places a
> svara
> >> > > change effects a meaning change?
> >> > >
> >> > > And the other side of the question - and I can see that this is
> >> slippery
> >> > > slope so will not press the point- where the svara change does not
> >> > effect a
> >> > > meaning change (are there any rules to assert this ?)- what are we
> to
> >> > make
> >> > > of such (unchaste) chanting. Will it still be efficacious ?
> >> > >
> >> > > One last question - its a common practice (I do so quite often) to
> >> chant
> >> > a
> >> > > few assorted suktas after the morning sandhya . Such chanting has
> >> > > discernible dRShTa phala in the form of cittanaiscalyam. My question
> >> is
> >> > -
> >> > > since there is no particular vidhi from a brAhmaNa being followed in
> >> such
> >> > > chanting (afaik), is there any adRShTa at all which accrues from
> such
> >> > > chanting after sandhya or on some other occasions like say on a
> visit
> >> to
> >> > a
> >> > > temple?
> >> > >
> >> > > One last question - if a mistake occurs while chanting a line from a
> >> > sUkta,
> >> > > can it be corrected by 're-chanting' that particular line or phrase
> >> or is
> >> > > the chanting thereby irretrievably blemished.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Om
> >> > > Raghav
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> >> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >> >
> >> > For assistance, contact:
> >> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> >> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >>
> >> For assistance, contact:
> >> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>



-- 


*Rajesh Benjwal*