[Advaita-l] What is Krishna's 'tattva'?

[H S Chandramouli]

Reg  << *Thus, the effect is non different from the cause, but the cause is
different from the effect.*
​ >>,

Sorry if I am making a serious mistake.  But this is not correct for
vivarta. Effect is only an appearence. Cause is the Truth in vivarta.

Regards​

2017-11-22 13:57 GMT+05:30 H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>:

> Reg  << 2) names and forms, which are as though conjured by ignorance,
> are the
> seeds of the world, and are part of Ishvara.
> ​>>,
>
> Perhaps  " which are as though conjured by ignorance " should read as "
> which are conjured by ignorance " and  "are part of Ishvara" should read
> as " are as though part of Ishvara" ?
>
> Regards
>
> 2017-11-22 13:50 GMT+05:30 H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>:
>
>> Reg  << Why does Shankara say that names and forms are sarvajnasya
>> Ishvarasya
>> AtmabhUta (ie they are part of him), and later say sarvajna: Ishvara:
>> tAbhyAm anya: (ie he is different from them)?
>> ​ >>,
>>
>> The important word
>> इव
>> ​ (
>>  iva
>> ​)​
>> ​appears to be
>>  misssing from
>> ​t​
>> he translation.
>> ​I think t
>> his leads to the question mark.​
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> 2017-11-22 12:40 GMT+05:30 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:
>>
>>> Yes, the effect is non different from the cause. However it does not mean
>>> the cause is same as the effect.
>>>
>>> Please read the full bhAShya of 2.1.14.
>>>
>>> Especially: सर्वज्ञस्येश्वरस्यात्मभूते इवाविद्याकल्पिते
>>> नामरूपेतत्त्वान्यत्वाभ्यामनिर्वचनीये
>>> संसारप्रपञ्चबीजभूतेसर्वज्ञस्येश्वरस्य मायाशक्तिः प्रकृतिरिति
>>> चश्रुतिस्मृत्योरभिलप्येते ; ताभ्यामन्यः सर्वज्ञ ईश्वरः,
>>>
>>> Why does Shankara say that names and forms are sarvajnasya Ishvarasya
>>> AtmabhUta (ie they are part of him), and later say sarvajna: Ishvara:
>>> tAbhyAm anya: (ie he is different from them)?
>>>
>>> *Thus, the effect is non different from the cause, but the cause is
>>> different from the effect.*
>>>
>>> Continuing,
>>>  एवमविद्याकृतनामरूपोपाध्यनुरोधीश्वरो भवति,
>>> व्योमेवघटकरकाद्युपाध्यनुरोधि ; स च
>>> स्वात्मभूतानेवघटाकाशस्थानीयानविद्याप्रत्युपस्थापितनामरूपकृ
>>> तकार्यकरणसङ्घातानुरोधिनो
>>> जीवाख्यान्विज्ञानात्मनः प्रतीष्टेव्यवहारविषये ;
>>> *तदेवमविद्यात्मकोपाधिपरिच्छेदापेक्षमेवेश्वरस्येश्वरत्वं
>>> सर्वज्ञत्वंसर्वशक्तित्वं च, न परमार्थतो विद्यया
>>> अपास्तसर्वोपाधिस्वरूपेआत्मनि ईशित्रीशितव्यसर्वज्ञत्वादिव्यवहार
>>> उपपद्यते ;  *
>>> He is saying that Ishvara's omniscience, etc are contingent upon the
>>> avidyAtmaka upAdhi, and without such an upAdhi there is no rulership,
>>> omniscience etc.
>>>
>>> To summarise, the same bhAShya passage says
>>> 1) the world is non different from Brahman
>>> 2) names and forms, which are as though conjured by ignorance, are the
>>> seeds of the world, and are part of Ishvara.
>>> 3) However Ishvara is different from them.
>>> 4) His omniscience depends on the upAdhi conjured up ignorance.
>>> 5) Free of upAdhi, there is neither ruler, nor ruled, nor omniscience
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> The only way these multiple statements can simultaneously hold true is if
>>> they are being said from two frames of reference. In vyavahAra, you have
>>> names and forms from ignorance, out of which this world appears. Such a
>>> world is non different from Brahman. However Ishvara, whose omniscience
>>> stems from an upAdhi conjured up by ignorance, is different from them.
>>>
>>> In paramArtha, there is no ignorance, thus no upAdhi, nor names and forms
>>> and no world. Talk of non difference with Brahman is absurd here, because
>>> there is only one entity, so there is neither difference nor non
>>> difference.
>>>
>>> It is knowledge of such a upAdhi rahita Brahman that is moksha, thus
>>> there
>>> is no point holding on to ananyatvam of kArya, look at the kArya kAraNa
>>> atIta vastu.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2017 4:26 a.m., "Durga Prasad Janaswamy via Advaita-l" <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hari Om,
>>> >
>>> > Pranams.
>>> >
>>> > Everything not Brahman is asat.
>>> >
>>> > mithyA is non-difference from, i.e.non-existence in isolation from,
>>> > Brahman.
>>> >
>>> > Brahma Sutra: 2.1.14
>>> > अभ्युपगम्य चेमं व्यावहारिकं भोक्तृभोग्यलक्षणं विभागम् ‘ स्याल्लोकवत्’
>>> इति
>>> > परिहारोऽभिहितः ; न त्वयं विभागः परमार्थतोऽस्ति, यस्मात्तयोः
>>> > कार्यकारणयोरनन्यत्वमवगम्यते । कार्यमाकाशादिकं बहुप्रपञ्चं जगत् ; कारणं
>>> परं
>>> > ब्रह्म ; तस्मात्कारणात्परमार्थतोऽनन्यत्वं व्यतिरेकेणाभावः
>>> > कार्यस्यावगम्यते ।
>>> >
>>> > Swami Gambhirananda's translation:
>>> > Assuming, for the sake of argument, an empirical difference between the
>>> > experiencer and the things experienced, the refutation (under the
>>> previous
>>> > aphorism) was advance by holding that "the distinction can well exist
>>> as
>>> > observed in common experience". But in reality, this difference does
>>> not
>>> > exist, since a non-difference between those cause and effect is
>>> recognized.
>>> > The effect is the universe, diversified as space etc. and the cause is
>>> the
>>> > supreme Brahman. In reality it is known that the effect has
>>> non-difference
>>> > from, i.e.non-existence in isolation from, that cause.
>>> >
>>> > regards
>>> > -- durga prasad
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Namaste Sri Sreenivasa Murthy,
>>> > > To clarify, all my email is saying that there is nothing beyond you -
>>> > > nothing outside, nothing inside. The methodology given in shruti -
>>> neti
>>> > > neti is also saying that. There is nothing to memorize, nothing to
>>> > > interiorize, only stuff to be given up. Every conception of Brahman
>>> is
>>> > not
>>> > > Brahman. Everything not Brahman is mithyA. Everything mithyA is to be
>>> > given
>>> > > up.
>>> > >
>>> > > Kind regards,
>>> > > Venkatraghavan
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>> >
>>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>> >
>>> > For assistance, contact:
>>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>
>>> For assistance, contact:
>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>
>>
>>
>