[Advaita-l] What is Krishna's 'tattva'?

[H S Chandramouli]

Swami Gambhirananda translation

<< Name and form which constitute the seeds of the entire expanse of
phenomenal existence, and which are conjured up by nescience, are, as it
were, non-different from the omniscient God,...... >>.

The  " as it were " refers to " Name and form " and not " nescience ". I am
not sure if I am making a mistake here.

Regards

2017-11-22 14:37 GMT+05:30 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:

> Please see where the word iva occurs in advaita sharada (its with the next
> word इवाविद्याकल्पिते) and how Sw Gambhirananda translates it. Anyway the q
> was rhetorical as the answer is given in the email itself. By denying
> difference between effect and cause, identity is not affirmed.
> The same idea is conveyed by the bhAmatikAra -  न खल्वनन्यत्वमित्यभेदं
> ब्रूमः, किन्तु भेदं व्यासेधामः and the siddhikAra - अभेदे
> कार्यकारणभावव्याहत्या कथंचिदपि भेदस्यावश्याभ्युपेयत्वात्.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On 22 Nov 2017 8:36 a.m., "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> Reg  << 2) names and forms, which are as though conjured by ignorance, are
> the
> seeds of the world, and are part of Ishvara.
> ​>>,
>
> Perhaps  " which are as though conjured by ignorance " should read as "
> which are conjured by ignorance " and  "are part of Ishvara" should read
> as " are as though part of Ishvara" ?
>
> Regards
>
> 2017-11-22 13:50 GMT+05:30 H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>:
>
> > Reg  << Why does Shankara say that names and forms are sarvajnasya
> > Ishvarasya
> > AtmabhUta (ie they are part of him), and later say sarvajna: Ishvara:
> > tAbhyAm anya: (ie he is different from them)?
> > ​ >>,
> >
> > The important word
> > इव
> > ​ (
> >  iva
> > ​)​
> > ​appears to be
> >  misssing from
> > ​t​
> > he translation.
> > ​I think t
> > his leads to the question mark.​
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > 2017-11-22 12:40 GMT+05:30 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>:
> >
> >> Yes, the effect is non different from the cause. However it does not
> mean
> >> the cause is same as the effect.
> >>
> >> Please read the full bhAShya of 2.1.14.
> >>
> >> Especially: सर्वज्ञस्येश्वरस्यात्मभूते इवाविद्याकल्पिते
> >> नामरूपेतत्त्वान्यत्वाभ्यामनिर्वचनीये
> >> संसारप्रपञ्चबीजभूतेसर्वज्ञस्येश्वरस्य मायाशक्तिः प्रकृतिरिति
> >> चश्रुतिस्मृत्योरभिलप्येते ; ताभ्यामन्यः सर्वज्ञ ईश्वरः,
> >>
> >> Why does Shankara say that names and forms are sarvajnasya Ishvarasya
> >> AtmabhUta (ie they are part of him), and later say sarvajna: Ishvara:
> >> tAbhyAm anya: (ie he is different from them)?
> >>
> >> *Thus, the effect is non different from the cause, but the cause is
> >> different from the effect.*
> >>
> >> Continuing,
> >>  एवमविद्याकृतनामरूपोपाध्यनुरोधीश्वरो भवति,
> >> व्योमेवघटकरकाद्युपाध्यनुरोधि ; स च
> >> स्वात्मभूतानेवघटाकाशस्थानीयानविद्याप्रत्युपस्थापितनामरूपकृतका
> >> र्यकरणसङ्घातानुरोधिनो
> >> जीवाख्यान्विज्ञानात्मनः प्रतीष्टेव्यवहारविषये ;
> >> *तदेवमविद्यात्मकोपाधिपरिच्छेदापेक्षमेवेश्वरस्येश्वरत्वं
> >> सर्वज्ञत्वंसर्वशक्तित्वं च, न परमार्थतो विद्यया
> >> अपास्तसर्वोपाधिस्वरूपेआत्मनि ईशित्रीशितव्यसर्वज्ञत्वादिव्यवहार
> >> उपपद्यते ;  *
> >> He is saying that Ishvara's omniscience, etc are contingent upon the
> >> avidyAtmaka upAdhi, and without such an upAdhi there is no rulership,
> >> omniscience etc.
> >>
> >> To summarise, the same bhAShya passage says
> >> 1) the world is non different from Brahman
> >> 2) names and forms, which are as though conjured by ignorance, are the
> >> seeds of the world, and are part of Ishvara.
> >> 3) However Ishvara is different from them.
> >> 4) His omniscience depends on the upAdhi conjured up ignorance.
> >> 5) Free of upAdhi, there is neither ruler, nor ruled, nor omniscience
> etc.
> >>
> >> The only way these multiple statements can simultaneously hold true is
> if
> >> they are being said from two frames of reference. In vyavahAra, you have
> >> names and forms from ignorance, out of which this world appears. Such a
> >> world is non different from Brahman. However Ishvara, whose omniscience
> >> stems from an upAdhi conjured up by ignorance, is different from them.
> >>
> >> In paramArtha, there is no ignorance, thus no upAdhi, nor names and
> forms
> >> and no world. Talk of non difference with Brahman is absurd here,
> because
> >> there is only one entity, so there is neither difference nor non
> >> difference.
> >>
> >> It is knowledge of such a upAdhi rahita Brahman that is moksha, thus
> there
> >> is no point holding on to ananyatvam of kArya, look at the kArya kAraNa
> >> atIta vastu.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Venkatraghavan
> >>
> >> On 22 Nov 2017 4:26 a.m., "Durga Prasad Janaswamy via Advaita-l" <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hari Om,
> >> >
> >> > Pranams.
> >> >
> >> > Everything not Brahman is asat.
> >> >
> >> > mithyA is non-difference from, i.e.non-existence in isolation from,
> >> > Brahman.
> >> >
> >> > Brahma Sutra: 2.1.14
> >> > अभ्युपगम्य चेमं व्यावहारिकं भोक्तृभोग्यलक्षणं विभागम् ‘ स्याल्लोकवत्’
> >> इति
> >> > परिहारोऽभिहितः ; न त्वयं विभागः परमार्थतोऽस्ति, यस्मात्तयोः
> >> > कार्यकारणयोरनन्यत्वमवगम्यते । कार्यमाकाशादिकं बहुप्रपञ्चं जगत् ; कारणं
> >> परं
> >> > ब्रह्म ; तस्मात्कारणात्परमार्थतोऽनन्यत्वं व्यतिरेकेणाभावः
> >> > कार्यस्यावगम्यते ।
> >> >
> >> > Swami Gambhirananda's translation:
> >> > Assuming, for the sake of argument, an empirical difference between
> the
> >> > experiencer and the things experienced, the refutation (under the
> >> previous
> >> > aphorism) was advance by holding that "the distinction can well exist
> as
> >> > observed in common experience". But in reality, this difference does
> not
> >> > exist, since a non-difference between those cause and effect is
> >> recognized.
> >> > The effect is the universe, diversified as space etc. and the cause is
> >> the
> >> > supreme Brahman. In reality it is known that the effect has
> >> non-difference
> >> > from, i.e.non-existence in isolation from, that cause.
> >> >
> >> > regards
> >> > -- durga prasad
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Namaste Sri Sreenivasa Murthy,
> >> > > To clarify, all my email is saying that there is nothing beyond you
> -
> >> > > nothing outside, nothing inside. The methodology given in shruti -
> >> neti
> >> > > neti is also saying that. There is nothing to memorize, nothing to
> >> > > interiorize, only stuff to be given up. Every conception of Brahman
> is
> >> > not
> >> > > Brahman. Everything not Brahman is mithyA. Everything mithyA is to
> be
> >> > given
> >> > > up.
> >> > >
> >> > > Kind regards,
> >> > > Venkatraghavan
> >> > >
> >> > >
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