[Advaita-l] cloning and inevitable mrutyu

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Nitin ji
i think the message did not reach the group so i am forwarding it
Om

On Wed 25 Apr, 2018, 11:22 AM Nithin Sridhar, <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Raghav ji,
>
> I believe in the context of the verse from the Ayurvedic text, I think it
> is more proper to take it not as a reference to physical heart for we all
> know that physical heart only pumps blood and it is not seat of
> consciousness. But there is a cavity of Hrdaya which is the seat of
> consciousness which also exist in Chest region. This is my understanding in
> any case.
>
> Regarding the Abortion before 16 weeks, you can see that I nowhere say
> that it is okay to abort or that it is not Adharma.  But the nuanced point
> is, the Shastras themselves make a distinction regarding the magnitude of
> Adharma involved before 4 months and after. More importantly, Shastras call
> for legal interference by way of punishment only in the case of after 4
> months. Karmic responsibility lies with the individual. Expecting State to
> infringe upon it goes pretty much against Dharma.
>
> Regarding 12th month, abortion being painful experience is not same as
> fetus experiencing pain. The fetus gains awareness of desire etc. only
> after the manifestation of Jiva which happens mostly during 4th month.
> Externally this manifests as certain strong desires in mother's which are
> actually desires of the Jiva which have entered.
>
> Having said this, pl note that 16 week is not a rigid number but only an
> indicator. There may be cases where in Jiva may enter earlier towards 12-13
> weeks itself. This is the reason Pumsavana is performed in third month. But
> by and large this process happens only in 4th month, usual towards end of
> it, hence the threshold of 16 weeks.
>
> Regards,
> Nithin
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:07 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Nitin ji
>> Since you wrote that the fetus develops a 'viscus of the heart' (this is
>> a physical formation in the chest region) and ('physical') limbs etc and in
>> the same breath mentioned that the heart is the seat of consciousness etc.,
>> I went along with that line of thought. Kindly see -
>> In the fourth month all the limbs and organs (of the body of the embryo)
>> become more potent and the fetus is endowed with consciousness owing to the
>> formation of viscus of the heart (Hrdaya). As heart is the seat of
>> consciousness, so as the heart becomes potent, it is endowed with
>> consciousness and hence it expresses its desire for things of taste, smell
>> etc. (through the longings of its mother).
>>
>> The context in the above para implies that physical organic development
>> is being correlated with the foetus being judged as an individual. The word
>> viscus is a physical structure surely.
>>
>> One other issue is the experience of significant amount of pain by the
>> foetus right from the 12th week itself rendering abortion an exceedingly
>> painful experience for even a 12 week foetus.
>>
>> My referring to these issues is more as a matter of abundant caution
>> before reaching a conclusion that abortion upto 16 weeks is bad but is
>> still left to the choice of the couple, as you seem to say. You have given
>> a nuanced perspective and i appreciate that. Just worried that people can
>> easily justify aborting unplanned pregnancies by saying we will just abort
>> before 16 weeks and  just face the karmic consequences in a future life.
>> (Since the other penalties like loss of varNa don't amount to much in
>> today's social churn).
>> I will check out the other links shortly.
>> Thank you
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>>
>> On Wed 25 Apr, 2018, 10:44 AM Nithin Sridhar, <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A typo in the last email. "This happens mostly towards 4th Month" (And
>>> not 4th week)
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Nithin Sridhar <
>>> sridhar.nithin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Raghav ji,
>>>>
>>>> The Hrdaya mentioned in the texts is not a reference to physical heart
>>>> or the heart beat. So, your reference to heart beating has no bearing on
>>>> the Dauhrdi status in my reading. Hrdaya is a reference to seat of
>>>> consciousness, the manifestation of Jiva inside the fetus and is not a
>>>> reference to physical heart. And this happens mostly towards end of 4th
>>>> week.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your question about whether Abortion is Adharma, I would like
>>>> to direct you to my other article in the series- http://indiafacts.org/
>>>> abortion-dharmic-perspective-iv-abortion-murder/
>>>>
>>>> It is a 4-part article, pl read all of them.
>>>>
>>>> You may want to also check out this talk I gave on the issue wherein I
>>>> have discussed some of the questions you have raised-
>>>> https://youtu.be/IzZrjqNphPo
>>>>
>>>> I am not aware of any reference to abortion issue by the revered
>>>> Acharyas.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Nithin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
>>>> www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>> <#m_856164541768095927_m_5228528442529796730_m_8692643028512048971_m_-2286326982499716153_m_5582642369909354111_m_2381502272438918605_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:09 AM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l
>>>> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Nitin ji
>>>>> You have written a commendable article on Abortion from a Dharmic
>>>>> perspective with meticulous references from the traditional texts.
>>>>> Thank
>>>>> you for the same. I had been looking for such an article for some time
>>>>> now.
>>>>> Your articles are an excellent resource on an important dharmic issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there are many points of importance, one issue is about whether a
>>>>> foetus with a beating heart and which can feel pain is to be
>>>>> considered as
>>>>> having the rights of an independent jiiva or not. You have suggested
>>>>> based
>>>>> on texts, of course,  a 16 month cut-off, after which the foetus is a
>>>>> fullfledged individual living being. And even before that, those who
>>>>> abort,
>>>>> lose their varNa and have committed what is legally labelled homicide
>>>>> not
>>>>> amounting to murder. But the general sense I get is that abortion
>>>>> before 16
>>>>> weeks is equivalent an accidental killing. Do it's left to the choice
>>>>> of
>>>>> the couple?
>>>>>
>>>>> This topic is inherently painful to contemplate upon but we have to
>>>>> try and
>>>>> be objective. A few points I wished to share -
>>>>> 1. The limit of 16 weeks for categorizing foetus as a living
>>>>> individual,
>>>>> may be more of an indicative nature and the dauhRdi status where there
>>>>> are
>>>>> two hearts beating in the enciente happens as early as 6 weeks into
>>>>> pregnancy. And most definitely by the 8th week. Fetal pulse is clearly
>>>>> felt
>>>>> from them on. The functioning heart is a sign of consciousness being
>>>>> associated with the foetus, surely. As you wrote -
>>>>> In the fourth month all the limbs and organs (of the body of the
>>>>> embryo)
>>>>> become more potent and the fetus is endowed with consciousness owing
>>>>> to the
>>>>> formation of viscus of the heart (Hrdaya). As heart is the seat of
>>>>> consciousness, so as the heart becomes potent, it is endowed with
>>>>> consciousness and hence it expresses its desire for things of taste,
>>>>> smell
>>>>> etc. (through the longings of its mother).
>>>>>
>>>>> The only factor is that this heart functioning etc starts at week 5
>>>>> and is
>>>>> clearly present by week 12 rather than week 16?
>>>>>
>>>>> And the foetus feels pain because, the thalamus and cortex *start*
>>>>> getting
>>>>> connected from 12 to 20 weeks. So killing a foetus at even 12 weeks
>>>>> amounts
>>>>> to killing a living being with a beating heart and which can feel pain.
>>>>> Although the complete connections are there only after about 16 to 20
>>>>> weeks, there is evidence to indicate touch and pain in a foetus which
>>>>> is
>>>>> even 12 weeks old. Please see this link of for a visual
>>>>> representations of
>>>>> a foetus at 12 weeks.
>>>>> https://in.pinterest.com/pin/181481059958351131/
>>>>>
>>>>> Or
>>>>> https://goo.gl/images/gIUS63
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.Two authentic shastra scholars one a senior Swami who had also
>>>>> studied
>>>>> some of the smritis and another a grihastha paNDita held that the
>>>>> abortion
>>>>> is a highly adharmic action at *all* stages of foetal development.
>>>>> Social
>>>>> ostracism was only a shade less than capital punishment . The only
>>>>> exceptions were to save the life of the mother etc. There was no
>>>>> question
>>>>> of a couple choosing to abort since it was inconvenient or unplanned.
>>>>>
>>>>> One last question - are there any spoken or written pronouncements of
>>>>> the
>>>>> respected Shankaracharya Mahasamnidhanam of Sringeri or of Kanchi on
>>>>> this
>>>>> issue of permissibility of abortion before 16 weeks ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Raghav
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue 24 Apr, 2018, 5:43 PM Nithin Sridhar via Advaita-l, <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > This article sheds light on how and when Jiva enters a fetus-
>>>>> > http://indiafacts.org/abortion-dharmic-perspective-
>>>>> iii-jiva-enter-fetus/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This may provide some perspective.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <
>>>>> > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>>>>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > Virus-free.
>>>>> > www.avast.com
>>>>> > <
>>>>> > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>>>>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 5:23 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <
>>>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Venkatraghavanji - PraNAms
>>>>> > > Just couple of comments.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >    On Tuesday, April 24, 2018, 3:04:08 AM EDT, Venkatraghavan S via
>>>>> > > Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >  "But can we give a precise
>>>>> > > reason why an electronic entity cannot be considered a jiva with
>>>>> the
>>>>> > usual
>>>>> > > faculties of iccha, GYAna, and kriya and having sanchita karma
>>>>> etc."
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Namaste,
>>>>> > > An interesting thought experiment.
>>>>> > > 1) The birth of such a 'jIva' would break the laws of karma.
>>>>> > > How can an android jIva have sanchita karma, ie what would be the
>>>>> > > receptacle for sanchita karma for an android jIva? If you say the
>>>>> > sUkshma /
>>>>> > > kAraNa sharIra, then that is created at the same time as the sthUla
>>>>> > > sharIra. -------------Sada: Therefore Suukshma/karana shareera
>>>>> need not
>>>>> > be
>>>>> > > created. Upanishads use the word - upavishati - it enters. An
>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> > > jiiva enters into the sthuulashareera if that is conducive to
>>>>> exhaust its
>>>>> > > vaasanaas.
>>>>> > > Question, of course, is what jiiva wants that type of shareera to
>>>>> exhaust
>>>>> > > its vaasanaas?
>>>>> > > To the extent that I am familiar with programming, the emotions of
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > robot also are programmed - just as a computer can be programmed
>>>>> to play
>>>>> > > chess. The process of selection of the emotions are also
>>>>> pre-programmed,
>>>>> > > given the input information and multitude of choices (paths).
>>>>> Hence, just
>>>>> > > as the virus and bacteria and lower forms of the jiivas are
>>>>> > pre-programmed
>>>>> > > to follow particular responses to the external stimulus, here the
>>>>> > > programmer(s) take the role of Iswara(s) to set the patterns of the
>>>>> > > responses and also selection process to respond to the external
>>>>> stimulus.
>>>>> > > The robots operate until the program(s) fails. They do not have a
>>>>> will to
>>>>> > > perform independently of the programmed paths.
>>>>> > > Hari Om!Sadananda
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>> > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> > > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > For assistance, contact:
>>>>> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Nithin S
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>> >
>>>>> > For assistance, contact:
>>>>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>>
>>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nithin S
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nithin S
>>>
>>