//You brought in Advaita and teachings of Shankara into the fold. //
Excuse me, but this is an advaita forum.
How does bringing advaita become irrelevant here?
//Then moved on to similarity between Ishwara and the other so-called similar gods. //
I did not move on. The so-called similarity was in my very first post. And it was addressed to advaitins, because this is an advaita list. If you thought it was irrelevant, you should not have responded.
//Manu Smriti is not the mainstream book that Hindus follow. //
It is accepted by all vedAntic traditions.
//Now, it has come to quoting random quotes from the scriptures justifying violence. //
Inconvenient quotations, but not random by any means.
//Are you seriously suggesting this violence is because people follow Manu Smirit? :Really? :) Please do not correlate unrelated things. //
The violence is because the scriptures sanctioned them for ages, until it is completely ingrained in the society.
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 11:51:02 PM GMT+5:30, Murali k <methusala8 at gmail.com> wrote:
Actually, the one shifting goal posts here is you. We started with cultural appropriation. Nothing else. You brought in Advaita and teachings of Shankara into the fold. Then moved on to similarity between Ishwara and the other so-called similar gods. Now, it has come to quoting random quotes from the scriptures justifying violence.
However, to answer your question,. Manu Smriti is not the mainstream book that Hindus follow. Also, I never agreed that violence is organised in Hinduism. You have mis-understood my comment. I just said that the violence is unfortunate and uncalled for. Are you seriously suggesting this violence is because people follow Manu Smirit? :Really? :) Please do not correlate unrelated things.
Let me come back full-circle and close this from my side. The fact that Kalyan or Murali on some random forum on the internet disagree about the dumb activities of missionaries is not that important. But what is important is that followers of Sanatana Dharma ( not sure about you) do not want this religion be destroyed by idiotic zealots of all kinds (Imams, leftists, or Missionaries.) And we do not have enough money or Media clout to justify and condemn the atrocities of these Missionaries, but rest assured, we will not be cowed down by them anymore.
Please have the last word here. I will leave it at this.
On 9 August 2018 at 23:13, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:
//I was kinda expecting that you would bring up Manusmriti. Nothing new under the sun. I had enough professors in the University who would end up quoting this text. Tell me, How many Shudras (your term, not mine) ears have been filled with Molten lead of late? //
I think you are shifting goalposts here. First, your contention was that there is no organized violence in Hinduism, unlike Semitic religions.
When I pointed out the caste based violence, you accepted it but said that unlike Hindu scriptures, Semitic scriptures sanction violence.
When I pointed out that some Hindu scriptures sanction violence, you asked who follows these scriptures? Didn't you accept caste based violence as a fact earlier?
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 11:03:26 PM GMT+5:30, Murali k <methusala8 at gmail.com> wrote:
I was kinda expecting that you would bring up Manusmriti. Nothing new under the sun. I had enough professors in the University who would end up quoting this text. Tell me, How many Shudras (your term, not mine) ears have been filled with Molten lead of late?
Actually, Islam's follow their scriptures to the letter. That is their problem. One cannot accuse them of not following the book! Esp Isis. Same thing with Christianity when it comes to proselyting. They have gone easy on killing after the age of enlightenment. If someone is not following the book (assuming that what you say is true and Manusmiriti is a mainstream book) then it is the followers of Sanatana Dharma as no one follows these rules of Manu Smiriti. People have a copy of Gita in their house. Not Manu Smriti.
You can believe whatever that you want to believe, but trying to convince others of your convoluted (sorry for this word usage)logic might not work all the time. If you want to believe that Ishwara will bless you by taking the form of shankara, power to you.
On 9 August 2018 at 21:33, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:
//I missed the caste-related violence because it is not there in our scriptures that one has to attack others and kill others. Or to discriminate based on birth.//
Then, you have probably not read the Manusmriti, which enjoins pouring of molten lead into the ears of Shudras who hear vedas, cutting off the tongue of Shudras for chanting vedas, cutting shudra's body into pieces for mastering the vedas.
The manusmriti is not an outlier text. It is a mainstream text, accepted by all streams of vedAntins.
//From the point of view of the highest Truth, all these divisions are meaningless. I think most people on this list will agree. //
The highest point of view is there in theory only. Almost no one practices it.
//What the scriptures say and what people follow are two entirely different things. //
The same twisted (sorry for using this word) defence can be given for Islam and Christianity.
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 9:21:31 PM GMT+5:30, Murali k <methusala8 at gmail.com> wrote:
I missed the caste-related violence because it is not there in our scriptures that one has to attack others and kill others. Or to discriminate based on birth. From the point of view of the highest Truth, all these divisions are meaningless. I think most people on this list will agree.
What the scriptures say and what people follow are two entirely different things. I do wish things were different in India and that we do not have such incidents. But if wishes were horses, then pigs would fly.
As Shankara does not mention Jesus in his Panchayatana Puja, my own limited,bigoted intelligence would assume that yes, it excludes Jesus. Fortunately, missionaries were not so active in his life-time, else they would have ensured that Jesus was also included in the Panchayatana Puja.
On 9 August 2018 at 21:04, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:
//Does Rig Veda also include Allah and Jesus? :) //
If Ishwara can assume any form to bless the devotee as Shankara says, then can't he assume the form of Jesus? (Allah has no form, of course).
//Do you see people killing in the name of Ishwara or converting gullible people in the name of Ishwara?//
How did you miss the caste-related violence and worst forms of discrimination, which have been happening for centuries?
Most of the so-called lower castes are converting to other religions, because they have not been given decent space under the Lordship of Ishwara. It is a different matter whether they are getting any decent space once they convert.
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 8:51:01 PM GMT+5:30, Murali k <methusala8 at gmail.com> wrote:
Does Rig Veda also include Allah and Jesus? :) That is indeed news to me. sa Brahma, sa Shiva, not sa Jesus and sa allah.
I have mentioned clearly that I do not want to go into the details of why these three are different. Once only needs to look at the violence perpetuated in the name of Allah and Jesus to see the difference. Is that not evidence enough? Do you see people killing in the name of Ishwara or converting gullible people in the name of Ishwara?
I think we are digressing and I see no point in discussing this further. We are too far apart in or views and we are just wasting time.
All the best,Murali
On 9 August 2018 at 20:18, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:
//Who says that "all devatas can be treated as Ishwara"? Can you quote a source or is this your own conclusion? //
Rig veda says - ekam sat viprah bahuda vadanti.
Narayana sukta says - sa brahma sa shiva etc.
In brahmasUtra bhAshya, Shankara says that Ishwara can take any form to bless his devotee.
Also, you can follow this link which argues that even a buffalo can be Ishwara -
http://creative.sulekha.com/ even-a-buffalo-can-be-saguna- brahman_626228_blog
//Ishwara is very much unlike Allah and the ancient christian god of the old testament?//
Please use evidence to support your conclusion. Indra has done so many bad deeds and yet the Rig veda treats him as Ishwara.
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 7:59:01 PM GMT+5:30, Murali k <methusala8 at gmail.com> wrote:
Who says that "all devatas can be treated as Ishwara"? Can you quote a source or is this your own conclusion?
Ishwara is very much unlike Allah and the ancient christian god of the old testament? A cursory reading of the quran or the Old Testament will put this argument to rest. Have you read these scriptures? Would you still agree that all three are the same?
To equate all three in a superficial way is laughable. I do not want to go into the details here. And when we have our own innumerable paths to reach god, why should we replace it? Is the alternative 10X better? I do not think so.
If you do not see any harm in it, Great.You are entitled to your view. In the same breath, others are entitled to theirs. Just because I follow Advaita does not mean that one should live with every act of cultural violence perpetuated by these missionaries.
On 9 August 2018 at 19:38, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita- vedanta.org> wrote:
Interesting discussion on this issue.
I often find posts in this list saying that advaita is non-sectarian and devata does not matter in advaita and all devatas can be treated as Ishwara.
If devata does not matter, then Jesus and Allah should also be acceptable to advaitins, right? What is the harm in replacing the name of Rama or Krishna with that of Christ?
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