[Advaita-l] The 'Snake-and-ladder' game - The Spiritual path

[Kalyan]

//There is a large middle ground between being blind to the suffering of 
others and gullibly accepting all claims of alleged suffering.  How about 
employing some of that skepticism you prescribe for others?//
Skepticism for events like holocast, is not justified.Similarly, skepticism about the ill-treatment of shudras, is not justified. I dont know where you live, but instances of atrocities against dalits are still common in India.


//I suggest you acquaint yourself with modern archaeological methods.  It is 
certainly possible to detect if a corpse contains lead or lac even in 
ashes if it was cremated.//
The point I was trying to make is that no one is going to dig up cemetaries, unless they are ancient, because digging up functioning cemetaries is forbidden.Moreover, if such brutal punishment is prescribed, it would act as a great deterrence in itself, so statistically, very few will break the law. So even if you search, it would be like searching for a needle in a haystack.

So while you can triumphantly proclaim that the punishment is not handed down, you are ignoring its deterrence value and its discriminative intent and its brutal nature.Having said all this, I dont understand why such texts continue to be treated as sacred, when they are blatantly discriminative and horrible to contemplate.
> There need not be any literary records if this is the norm, rather than 
> the exception.

//Occams razor suggests a simpler explanation.  There are no records because 
it never happened.//
I think somewhere below you said 99% Indians have been illiterate. So on what basis are you expecting literary evidence?
> However, people are ignoring the most important point here. Such 
> statements institutionalize violence against an entire community.


//An old assertion of the Marxists but one that does not bear scrutiny.

For a start there is no "Shudra community"  There are many jatis in the 
various regions of India that could fall under that banner but they vary 
greatly on a spectrum between inarguably oppressed to dominant socioeconomic 
powers.//
Firstly, it does not need one to be a Marxist to see the obvious. That a text like Manusmriti is blatantly discriminatory, can be deciphered by most neutral people.Secondly, there are SC groups spread all over India. This is what I call as the shudra community. They have been uniformly discriminated against. Modern day parlance for them is dalits. So your contention that there is no shudra community, is incorrect. 


//Secondly there is plenty of evidence of nonantagonistic relations between 
various dvija and Shudra jatis.  A blanket assumption that the only (or 
even primary) relation was one of violence is bogus.

Raghava gave the example of the Reddys of Andhra Pradesh which aptly 
illustrates these two points.//
Here is something about Reddy caste. The Reddys are pseudo-shudras.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddy
//That there is intergroup violence in India is not in itself controversial. 
Blaming it on the Manusmrti is a leap too far.//
Scriptures like Manusmriti have been institutionalizing violence against lower castes, for a long time.After some point of time, you dont need the scripture. The violent mentality is ingrained in the society.  

> centuries.Now it is my turn to say - Ishwara, who encourages torture of 
> his own people and sanctions the institutionalization of violence 
> against shudras, is unfit to be worshipped.

//Well it's a good thing we don't worship such an Ishwara.  Still nothing to 
do with the Manusmrti though.//
Surprising you say this given that till recently, the dalits were not even allowed into temples.



> (it is from an article by Dr B R Ambedkar). I suggest apologists to read the
>entire article - http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/57.%20Manu%20and%20the%20Shudras.htm

//It's telling that you quote a politician not a historian but ok let's take 
a look.//
Dr B R Ambedkar is the architect of the Indian constitution. He is no ordinary man.


> Under the Maratha rule any one other than a Brahmin uttering a
> Veda Mantra was liable to have his tongue cut off and as a matter of fact
> the tongues of several Sonars (goldsmiths) were actually cut off by the
> order of the Peshwa for their daring to utter the Vedas contrary to law.



//In the Mahratta Empire it was not Brahmanas in general but specifically 
the Chitpavana jati who had social power.  The Chitpavanas did not 
want to accept the dvijatva of the Daivajnas and the latter insisted upon 
it.  Nowhere in any of the arguments is the Manusmrti mentioned.//
There you go. You have proved my point. The punishment was meted out because the sonars were not seen as dvijas. That means they were not seen as members of first 3 varnas. Hence, they were seen as shudras by the dominant caste. This proves my point.