[Advaita-l] Partlessness of Brahman and Maya

[Venkatraghavan S]

You are welcome, Subbuji. Just a minor typo - the last paragraph should
read:

"Both mImAmsa and nyAya define multiple guNa-s (attributes) inhering in a
substance, however I have not come across references within pUrva mImAmsa
or nyAya literature for the term nirguNa. The Atma, in both nyAya and
mImAmsa, is saguNa."

Regards,
Venkatraghavan

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019, 09:22 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for this authoritative reply Venkat ji. That gives a firm idea of
> the meaning of the term.
>
> Regards
> Subbu
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019, 13:32 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Subbuji,
>> In sAnkhya, the idea that puruSha is devoid of the sattva, tamas and rajo
>> guNa-s is found in the sAnkhya kArika-s. kArika 11 refers to *vyaktam* and
>> *pradhAnam* as being *triguNam*, and puruSha as *tadviparItastathA ca
>> pumAn, *laying the foundation for the puruSha being nirguNam (that is,
>> devoid of sattva, rajas and tamah attributes). However, the term
>> "*nirguNam*",
>> appears later.
>>
>> gauDapAda in his *sAnkhya kArikA bhAShya*, uses the term "*aguNa*" for the
>> puruSha, but the meaning is the same as the term nirguNa, ie one where the
>> triguNa-s are absent. Now, it is not certain whether the author of this
>> bhAShya is the same gauDapAda as the author of the mANDUkya kArika-s. Be
>> that as it may, in the jayamangalA commentary to the sAnkhya kArika-s,
>> whose author is said to have preceded vAcaspati miSra, we find the term
>> "nirguNa" itself.
>>
>> Both mImAmsa and nyAya, guNa-s define multiple guNa-s inhering in a
>> substance, however I have not come across references within pUrva mImAmsa
>> or nyAya literature for the term nirguNa. The Atma, in both nyAya and
>> mImAmsa, is saguNa.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 1:52 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:22 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Sudhanshu ji,
>> > >
>> > > Pl cite reference for nirguNatva of guNas. That will solve many issues
>> > for
>> > > > me.
>> > > >
>> > > There is some evidence of this within sAnkhya literature.
>> > >
>> > > nirguNa can mean two things - the absence of sattva, rajas, tamo
>> guNa-s
>> > or
>> > > the absence of attributes such as rUpa, rasa, gandha etc.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Thanks for this very informative post, Venkat ji.  Is the term 'nirguna'
>> > present in Nyaya, Sankhya, Mimamsa?  I am asking because, non-advaitins
>> > generally hold 'nirguna' to mean 'absence of despicable
>> traits/attributes
>> > in Brahman (Vishnu).'
>> >
>> > warm regards
>> > subbu
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Now, we cannot hold that guNa-s such as sattva etc. have other guNa-s
>> > such
>> > > as sattva, etc. in them, because that would lead to infinite regress.
>> > With
>> > > respect to attributes like rUpa, rasa, gandha etc, we can turn to
>> > sAnkhya
>> > > kArika and its bhAShya. The tenth kArika is as follows:
>> > > हेतुमदनित्यमव्यापि सक्रियमनेकमाश्रितं लिङ्गम्।
>> > > सावयवं परतन्त्रं व्यक्तं विपरीतमव्यक्तम् ।।
>> > >
>> > > Gaudapadacharya in his sAnkhya kArika bhAShya says that the word
>> > > विपरीतमव्यक्तम्
>> > > in the kArika above leads to avyakta (= pradhAna) itself being
>> > > niravayava . Interestingly,
>> > > he does so on the basis of the absence of shabda, sparsha, rUpa, rasa,
>> > > gandha in pradhAna (अवयवा: शब्दस्पर्शरूपरसगन्धा:...तथा सावयवं व्यक्तं,
>> > > निरवयवमव्यक्तम् | न हि शब्दस्पर्शरसरूपगन्धा: प्रधाने सन्ति |) . Now,
>> > these
>> > > avayavA-s are what the naiyyAyika refers to as guNa-s .
>> > >
>> > > It is not possible for us to differentiate between the guNa-s of
>> sattva,
>> > > rajas and tamas from pradhAna (प्रधानमपि गुणैर्न भिद्यते, अन्ये गुणा:,
>> > > अन्यत् प्रधानमेवं विवेकं याति says gauDapAdAchArya in the next
>> kArika's
>> > > bhAShya), hence as pradhAna does not have those attributes, it follows
>> > that
>> > > guNa-s also do not have those attributes.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Can niravayatva itself be held to be sufficient to proclaim
>> nirguNatva?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > So, in answer to the above question, in sAnkhya, the absence of guNa-s
>> > such
>> > > as shabda, sparsha, rUpa, rasa and gandha is the basis for pradhAna
>> being
>> > > called niravayava.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >  I would like your view regarding the usage of word nirguNa in
>> Vedanta.
>> > > > Does it have nyAya-guNa connotation or sAmkhya-guNa connotation or
>> > both?
>> > > >
>> > > Both.
>> > > In the BGB 13.12, shankarAchArya argues that Brahman does not have
>> > > guNa-s (in the nyAya sense of attributes inhering in a substance) and
>> > thus
>> > > is beyond the reach of words - ‘शुक्लः’ ‘कृष्णः’ इति वा गुणतः...नापि
>> > गुणवत्
>> > > , येन गुणशब्देन उच्येत, निर्गुणत्वात् ।
>> > > In BGB 13.14, shankarAchArya says that Brahman is nirguNa in the
>> sense of
>> > > the absence of sAmkhya guNas  निर्गुणं सत्त्वरजस्तमांसि गुणाः तैः
>> वर्जितं
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > > Venkatraghavan
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