[Advaita-l] No Parinama in Brahman says Shankara Bhagavatpada

[H S Chandramouli]

Pranams.

Yes, I do remember the discussions related to Panchadashi.We agreed to
disagree.

Not only that, we had discussed this topic on many other occasions as well,
but always with the same end result. That is why I do not want to repeat
the same exercise all over again.

Pranams and Regards

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 5:26 PM kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> PraNAms
>
> We had some discussion related to this when an issue was raised in
> relation to some slokas in Panchadasi when we were doing those slokas -
> about a year ago.
>
> Transformation gold into ornaments is vivarta while the transformation of
> a ring into a bangle is parinaama.
>
> vaachaarambhanam vikaaro naamadheyam - relates to vivarta than parinaama.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 03:44:12 AM EDT, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
> Namaste,
>
> Very  happy to see the correction issued , suo moto, in respect  of one
> part. Hope and wish the same will follow, sooner than later,  in respect of
> the following part as well.
>
> << Shankara has elsewhere denied any parinama even in
> the case of clay, etc. The Chandogya and Manukya karika bhashya-s are the
> references >>.
>
> Regards
>
> <
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> >
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> >
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:02 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Brahma Sutra Bhashya 2.1.14
> >
> >  ननु मृदादिदृष्टान्तप्रणयनात् परिणामवद्ब्रह्म शास्त्रस्याभिमतमिति गम्यते
> ;
> > परिणामिनो हि मृदादयोऽर्था लोके समधिगता इति ।
> >
> > Question: From the analogies of clay, gold and iron, it appears that
> > Brahman is subject to transformation since it is admitted in the world
> that
> > clay, etc. undergo transformation to yield their effects of pot,
> ornament,
> > etc.
> >
> > Reply:  It is not so. The shruti passages such as This Atman is unborn,
> > beyond death, old age, etc. not gross, not subtle, etc. preclude the
> above
> > conclusion. These passages teach that Atman is immutable, kUTastha. Can
> we
> > say that one Brahman alone is endowed with the attribute of
> transformation
> > and also the absence of it? Not so since we have stated Brahman to be
> > kUTastha, immutable. Such a Brahman cannot have conflicting attributes
> such
> > as movement and fixed in one place. Brahman is kutastha and nitya because
> > it is devoid of all transformations. It is also not the case that just as
> > the realization that Brahman is verily the Atman leads to moksha, the
> > transformation of Brahman, independently, is aimed at giving some fruit
> (to
> > the aspirant), as there is no pramana for such a contention. The shruti
> > teaches that the moksha phala is attained only by realizing the kuTastha
> > brahman (and not by knowing Brahman to be subject to transformation). It
> is
> > the firm conclusion that while there is the fruit (of liberation) only by
> > knowing Brahman as kUTastha, there is no fruit stated in the shaastra for
> > knowing Brahman as endowed with transformation as the world, the latter
> is
> > only a means to realize Brahman as kUTastha resulting in moksha. There is
> > absolutely no fruit in knowing Brahman as the one transforming into the
> > world.
> >
> > नेत्युच्यते — ‘ स वा एष महानज आत्माजरोऽमरोऽमृतोऽभयो ब्रह्म’ (बृ. उ. ४ ।
> ४ ।
> > २५)
> > <
> >
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=4&id=BR_C04_S04_V25&hl=%20%E0%A4%B8%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%8F%E0%A4%B7%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%9C%20%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE
> > >
> >  ‘ स एष नेति नेत्यात्मा’ (बृ. उ. ३ । ९ । २६)
> > <
> >
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=3&id=BR_C03_S09_V26&hl=%20%E0%A4%B8%20%E0%A4%8F%E0%A4%B7%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE
> > >
> >  ‘ अस्थूलमनणु’ (बृ. उ. ३ । ८ । ८)
> > <
> >
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=3&id=BR_C03_S08_V08&hl=%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A5%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%A3%E0%A5%81
> > >
> >  इत्याद्याभ्यः सर्वविक्रियाप्रतिषेधश्रुतिभ्यः ब्रह्मणः कूटस्थत्वावगमात्
> ; न
> > ह्येकस्य ब्रह्मणः परिणामधर्मत्वं तद्रहितत्वं च शक्यं प्रतिपत्तुम् ।
> स्थिति
> > गतिवत्स्यादिति चेत् , न ; कूटस्थस्येति विशेषणात् ; न हि कूटस्थस्य
> ब्रह्मणः
> > स्थितिगति-वदनेकधर्माश्रयत्वं सम्भवति ; कूटस्थं च नित्यं ब्रह्म
> > सर्वविक्रियाप्रतिषेधादित्यवोचाम । न च यथा ब्रह्मण आत्मैकत्वदर्शनं
> > मो-क्षसाधनम् , एवं जगदाकारपरिणामित्वदर्शनमपि स्वतन्त्रमेव
> > कस्मैचित्फलायाभिप्रेयते, प्रमाणाभावात् ; कूटस्थब्रह्मात्मैकत्वविज्ञानादेव
> > हि
> >  फलं दर्शयति शास्त्रम् — ‘ स एष नेति नेत्यात्मा’ इत्युपक्रम्य ‘ अभयं वै
> जनक
> > प्राप्तोऽसि’ (बृ. उ. ४ । २ । ४)
> > <
> >
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=4&id=BR_C04_S02_V04&hl=%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A5%88%20%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%95%20%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF
> > >
> > इत्येवंजातीयकम् । तत्रैतत्सि-द्धं भवति — ब्रह्मप्रकरणे
> > सर्वधर्मविशेषरहितब्रह्मदर्शनादेव फलसिद्धौ सत्याम् , यत्तत्राफलं श्रूयते
> > ब्रह्मणो जगदाकारपरिणामित्वादि, तद्ब्रह्मदर्शनोपायत्-वेनैव विनियुज्यते,
> > फलवत्सन्निधावफलं तदङ्गमितिवत् ; न तु स्वतन्त्रं फलाय कल्प्यत इति ।
> >
> > In the above discourse we see that Shankara, even though has stated that
> > Brahman 'became/transformed' into the jagat in an earlier sutra bhashya
> > (आत्मकृतेः परिणामात्), his asserting here that there is no parinama,
> > becoming the jagat, for Brahman, the earlier mention of parinama is not
> in
> > the sense of any real transformation but only a case of Brahman appearing
> > as the jagat, vivarta.  Shankara has elsewhere denied any parinama even
> in
> > the case of clay, etc. The Chandogya and Manukya karika bhashya-s are the
> > references.
> >
> > Om Tat Sat
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