[Advaita-l] No Parinama in Brahman says Shankara Bhagavatpada

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Venkataraghavan ji,

//4) Creation is only an appearance.
5) Appearances do not exist.//

Appearance has a certain physical process behind it. Some laws of Physics
govern it. Hare's horn cannot have even an appearance. Coming about of
appearance implies change. Hence, appearance implies change - somewhere, in
something. And that militates against changelessness.

This is my problem.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 12:45 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sudhanshuji,
>
> The point is that even the seeing is not going on. An imaginary entity
> imagines that it is seeing change. Neither the seen, seeing or seer exist.
>
> This is the adhyAropa apavAda prakriyA.
> 1) The world exists.
> 2) It must have a creator.
> 3) Its creator is Brahman.
> 4) Creation is only an appearance.
> 5) Appearances do not exist.
> 6) There is no world.
> 7) There is no creator.
>
> What remains? That is the thing.
>
> Regards
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2019, 07:57 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Venaktaraghavan ji,
>>
>> Imagination/being mistaken too imply change. Change is "something going
>> on". My one-line reply is not really one-line since I had explained my
>> point in the instant list in quite detail above. I value your opinions very
>> much. In my opinion, this is a real problem for which I cannot see any
>> solution. However, I am unimpressed by solutions such as -- this is for
>> manda-dhi and you will understand when you will get purity of mind. For
>> manda-dhi, pariNamavAda is there, for kushAgra-dhi, vivartavAda is there.
>> It is the basically issue of changelessness, infiniteness and change. In my
>> understanding, unless change is hare's horn (which it is obviously not) the
>> changelessness and infiniteness are compromised as exolained by me in mails
>> in the list above.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Sudhanshu.
>>
>> On Wed 26 Jun, 2019, 12:20 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sudhanshuji,
>>> If seeing is the basis of something going on - Seeing does not confer
>>> reality to the going on, nor does it reveal its reality. One could have
>>> simply imagined it / been mistaken.
>>>
>>> I'm merely pointing the direction for you to follow, why don't you give
>>> it some thought and come back with you find. I'd rather not have a one line
>>> conversation on the list.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2019, 07:44 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is that not obvious Venkataraghavan ji? I am seeing something going on.
>>>>
>>>> Sudhanshu.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed 26 Jun, 2019, 12:10 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshuji,
>>>>> Why do you think there is something going on?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2019, 05:57 Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bhaskar ji,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does replacing avidyA by MAyA helps. It does not help one bit.
>>>>>> What is
>>>>>> Ananya? Not different, right. If MAyA is not different from Brahman,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> the activity of MAyA is same as activity of Brahman. Even the
>>>>>> cropping up
>>>>>> of upAdhi, so as to make upAdhi-drishti and svarupa-drishti possible,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> against the nishkriyatva of Brahman. No matter how many words are
>>>>>> used, the
>>>>>> very fact that there is something going on AND there is nothing except
>>>>>> Brahman, is against nishkriyatva.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To say that there is something vyAvahArika and PArmArthika is again
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> nishkriyatva. How does vyAvahArika crops up. Same problem. Problem
>>>>>> can be
>>>>>> resolved only if vyAvhArika is hare's horn. MithyAtva does not help.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> vyAvhArika is obviously not hare's horn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So problem persists unless we say that we will eventually understand
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> when we will attain purity of mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sudhanshu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed 26 Jun, 2019, 09:54 Bhaskar YR, <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
>>>>>> > Hare Krishna
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Whether it is "gold appearing as ornament" or "bangle converting
>>>>>> into gold"
>>>>>> > -- there is activity. And that is against nishkriyatva.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >  Your observation is quite logical and needs attention.  Yes,
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> > needs to be some activity to accept the creation (whether it is
>>>>>> vivarta or
>>>>>> > pariNAma) hence Advaita when talking about brahma kArya (activity)
>>>>>> jagat it
>>>>>> > brings in apara brahma, when there is talk about nishkriya brahman
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> > directly talks about parabrahma.  Kindly look at sUtra bhAshya
>>>>>> 4.3.14.  Now
>>>>>> > the question, is this aparabrahman/ saguNa brahman/sOpAdhika
>>>>>> brahman/kArya
>>>>>> > brahman something different from parabrahman??  The obvious answer
>>>>>> is big
>>>>>> > NO, why??  Because, sadeva Soumya idamagra asit, ekamevAdviteeyaM
>>>>>> clarifies
>>>>>> > shruti.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I understand that the standard answer would be -- from the point of
>>>>>> view
>>>>>> > of gold, there is no activity. But from the point of view of gold,
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> > no ornament itself.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >  I would like to read this as :  from the point of view of gold (
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> > the brahman has the point of view!!??  Just wondering 😊 ) there is
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> > activity since the socalled ornament (nAma rUpa kArya) is nothing
>>>>>> but gold
>>>>>> > (kAraNa) We may take note of the upAdhi drushti and svarUpa drushti
>>>>>> as well
>>>>>> > here to understand how jagat is nothing but brahman but brahman is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> > jagat.  When the ornament seen as ornament it is upAdhi drushti
>>>>>> (parichinna
>>>>>> > drushti) but when the same ornament seen as gold then it is svarUpa
>>>>>> > drushti.  Since there is no independent existence of ornament apart
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> > gold, kArya 'as it is' anrutam but the same kArya is satyaM when it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> > viewed from its svarUpa drushti.  bhAshyakAra explains this in
>>>>>> chAndOgya :
>>>>>> > sarvaM cha nAmarUpAdi sadAtmanaiva satyaM vikArajAtaM svatastu
>>>>>> anrutaM eva,
>>>>>> > ... From the realization of sAmAnya behind all these vishesha-s
>>>>>> only we can
>>>>>> > find the answer to the question : kasminnu bhagavO vijnAte
>>>>>> sarvamidaM
>>>>>> > vijnAtaM bhavati ??  he is the abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNa of this
>>>>>> jagat
>>>>>> > hence the shruti statement : sarvaM khalvidaM brahma, sarvaM
>>>>>> brahmamayaM
>>>>>> > jagat.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The problem is -- gold CANNOT appear as ornament unless there is
>>>>>> space
>>>>>> > which is different from gold. Brahman CANNOT appear as world unless
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> > is something different from Brahman. A singular object cannot
>>>>>> appear as
>>>>>> > anything else. And that is not possible in advaita.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >  it has been called as mAya (not avidyA atleast in my Advaita
>>>>>> dictionary
>>>>>> > though popularly floating theory is avidyA = mAya ) the shakti of
>>>>>> brahman
>>>>>> > which is  brahmAnanya.  That which has been  called as mUla
>>>>>> prakruti (again
>>>>>> > it is not mUlAvidyA which is an unwanted contribution by later
>>>>>> > vyAkhyAnakAra-s to shankarAdvaita) that is the brahma.  ( yA
>>>>>> mUlaprakrutiH
>>>>>> > abhyupagamyate tadeva cha nO brahma)  says sUtra bhAshya.  This mUla
>>>>>> > prakruti / shakti / mAya is the svarUpa of brahman hence lord in
>>>>>> Geeta
>>>>>> > affectionately says : mama svarUpabhUtA madeeya mAyA.  I just
>>>>>> wonder what
>>>>>> > would have been the result had I replaced the word mAya with avidyA
>>>>>> here 😊
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>>>>> > bhaskar
>>>>>> >
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>>>>>

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