[Advaita-l] Chronology and Traceability

[Anand N]

Namaste,

Thank you for the examples, it is indeed an all encompassing view!

Om Namo Narayanaya,
Anand

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 at 19:10, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Please read 'salama purposes' as 'sakAma purposes'.
>
> On Thu, 17 Jun, 2021, 9:59 pm Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Anand ji
> >
> > Most of the graama devatas are placeable in the vedic devatas scheme. Sri
> > Krishna mentioned the grama devatas like the (sapta) mAtR gaNa devatas,
> > chatur-bhaginIs etc. in gItA 9.24.
> >
> > येऽपि अन्यदेवताभक्तिमत्त्वेन अविधिपूर्वकं यजन्ते, तेषामपि यागफलं
> अवश्यंभावि । कथम् ?
> > —
> >
> > यान्ति देवव्रता देवान्पितॄन्यान्ति पितृव्रताः ।
> > भूतानि यान्ति भूतेज्या यान्ति मद्याजिनोऽपि माम् ॥ २५ ॥
> > यान्ति गच्छन्ति देवव्रताः देवेषु व्रतं नियमो भक्तिश्च येषां ते देवव्रताः
> > देवान् यान्ति । पितॄन् अग्निष्वात्तादीन् यान्ति पितृव्रताः
> > श्राद्धादिक्रियापराः पितृभक्ताः । भूतानि विनायकमातृगणचतुर्भगिन्यादीनि
> यान्ति
> > भूतेज्याः भूतानां पूजकाः । यान्ति मद्याजिनः मद्यजनशीलाः वैष्णवाः मामेव
> > यान्ति । समाने अपि आयासे मामेव न भजन्ते अज्ञानात् , तेन ते अल्पफलभाजः
> > भवन्ति इत्यर्थः ॥ २५ ॥
> > Even these hierarchically lower devatas if worshipped with a sattvik
> > attitude confer results equivalent to Ishvara worship. This is what the
> > popular worship of vinAyaka is likely to have modified in to over the
> > centuries. This vedicization/sanskritization is quite awareful and
> > validated by the gIta itself. (The communist historians of India falsely
> > allege that such 'sanskritization' is 'brahminical' and with ulterior
> > motives.)
> >
> >
> > The idea is, that the same devatA, when performed with a different
> > attitude, leads to the devata himself/herself being evoked in a more
> saumya
> > / refined form.
> >
> > Next is the question of "non-vedic gods". The Astika view would be that
> > the vedas are the last word in ateendriya viShayas. Therefore all these
> > other non-vedic gods too are part of the vedic/agamic pantheon which has
> a
> > place for the most refined Ishvara worship as also departed ancestor
> > worship (pitRs) and the bhUta worship (lower devatas mostly for salama
> > purposes).
> >
> > Please note that the entire universe both gross and subtle  has been
> > partitioned or mapped out so to speak among these 33 categories of vedic
> > deities who represent Ishvara's powers or partial aspects . So any 'new'
> or
> > 'non-vedic' deity like Harihara or Santoshi mAtA (of 20th century vintage
> > according to some) or even tribal worship of the Sun or Earth or Rivers,
> is
> > only either an amsha or combination of these original vedic deities.
> >
> > When the tribals of Arunachal as part of their Donyi-Polo tradition
> > worship Surya and Chandra, its not hard to see correspondences. Elsewhere
> > it may be weaker but never altogether absent. This is the principle.
> >
> > I had occasion to stay for an year in the Biligiri Rangana Hills of
> Mysuru
> > where the Soliga tribals revere a huge ancient champaka tree called the
> > Doddasampige. Its hanging twines are identified as the jaTa or matted
> locks
> > of God. The correspondence to Shiva worship is evident although the names
> > of Shiva are not explicitly invoked for that particular Sacred tree.
> >
> > Om
> >
> > Raghav
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Jun, 2021, 6:40 pm Anand N via Advaita-l, <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Namaste,
> >>
> >> Thank you Jaldharji for the interesting references, especially that of
> >> Shiva and Garuda.
> >> Those references to Shiva as a bowman helped a lot!
> >>
> >> The way I am trying to see this, is like you pointed out very aptly to
> the
> >> "Vision" being granted to a Rishi(Seer).
> >> "For instance, the Greek
> >> poet Homer does not begin his Illiad "now I'm going to sing about the
> >> wrath of Achilles" but "Sing Muse of the wrath of Achilles"
> >> Subbuji had made a point that Ayyapa though not part of the Vedic fold,
> >> was
> >> later accepted
> >> as per Shishtachaara.
> >> So, that would imply that some Rishi had the vision of Ayyapa, through
> >> which the tradition of
> >> Ayyapa came along. This was then accepted into the vedic fold.
> >> Raghav Kumar Ji had also pointed out that this acceptance to the vedic
> >> fold
> >> is very conservative.
> >>
> >> There is however one thing nagging me here. There are several Non Vedic
> >> Gods in the Indian and
> >> outside the Indian context. There is also a tendency to take the
> >> "Gramadevata" and sanskritize
> >> and vedicize him. So it's not very clear to me how this can be accounted
> >> for.
> >>
> >> Om Namo Narayanaya,
> >> Anand
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 09:07, Jaldhar H. Vyas via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I have been wanting to respond to this post for some time but it has
> >> taken
> >> > me a long time to formulate my thoughts on this subject.
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2021, Anand N via Advaita-l wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I was a little hesitant about posting this question in a Vedanta
> >> group,
> >> > but
> >> > > I am doing it anyway. Ishwara is Brahma Sahita Maya, and this
> question
> >> > can
> >> > > be ignored too :-)
> >> >
> >> > On the contrary this is a very good question and one more students
> >> should
> >> > ask if they wish to increase their understanding.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > We say that Vedas, being Apaurusheya and timeless are the basis from
> >> > which
> >> > > even Smrutis and Puranas have developed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Apaurusheyatva is orthogonal to timelessness.  We speak of Newtons law
> >> of
> >> > gravity.  Isaac Newton was a devout Christian who lived in England in
> >> the
> >> > 17th century.  But gravity existed long before Isaac Newton and would
> >> > exist even if there had never been an Isaac Newton.  We call it
> Newtons
> >> > law because he was the first to "see" it.  So too, the Rshis are not
> the
> >> > authors of the mantras but the ones who first "saw" them (the literal
> >> > meaning of rshi is mantradrashta) Or they "heard" them  (Shruti =
> "that
> >> > which is heard") in any case this was not a deliberate mental act.  We
> >> see
> >> > a similar mindset in other ancient cultures too.  For instance, the
> >> Greek
> >> > poet Homer does not begin his Illiad "now I'm going to sing about the
> >> > wrath of Achilles" but "Sing Muse of the wrath of Achilles"  (The
> Muses
> >> > were the nine Goddesses of the Arts in Graeco-Roman religion.)  In
> other
> >> > words Homer did not think he was composing a poem but that divine
> >> > inspiration was posessing him and speaking through him.  Divine
> >> > inspiration could have made the Rshis see or it could have been the
> >> > hallucinogenic properties of the Soma plant or a state of samadhi
> caused
> >> > by yogic practices.  Whatever the cause, for the Mimamsakas (from whom
> >> > Vedantins take the doctrine of apauresheyatva) it is clear that Rshis
> >> are
> >> > not authors.
> >> >
> >> > Smrti deriving from Shruti is for a different reason.  Take for
> instance
> >> > Sandhyavandana.  Everyone will agree even if they don't practice it
> >> > themselves that this is the basic daily ritual obligation for a
> >> Brahmana.
> >> > Yet in the Shuklayajurvedic tradition which is the one I am familiar
> >> with,
> >> > the only mention of sandhya is in the Shatapathabrahmana,
> >> > aharaharsandhyaamupaset "From day to day he should practice the
> sandhya.
> >> > But what does that mean "from day to day"?  And how exactly do you
> >> > "practice sandhya"?  The Rshis pondered on subjects such as these and
> >> > these are the vedangas.  The vedanga kalpa deals with rituals and
> there
> >> > are different works in this genre for different shakhas (more of
> >> > which below) In shuklayajurveda it is in the paraskaragrhyasutra that
> >> you
> >> > can learn that sandhya is to be done at morning, noon and night, it
> >> > involves offering arghya, reciting Gayatri etc.  Other Rshis thought
> >> about
> >> > the big picture and worked to consolidate these particular traditions
> >> into
> >> > grand theories of Dharma.  These are what we normally call Smrtis, by
> >> > Manu, Yajnavalkya, Parashara etc.  As that literature became
> >> volumninous,
> >> > there developed nibandhas or digests such as Nirnayasindhu etc.  Then
> >> for
> >> > people who just wanted a practical guide to e.g. sandhya, there
> >> developed
> >> > prayogas which just give the facts without much or any discussion.
> One
> >> > project I've been working on and off for my own benefit is a
> comparison
> >> > between different prayoga books.  And so the general-particular cycle
> >> > continues.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Ramayana and Mahabharata being events which actually took place.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So that was a description of the Smrtis that deal with karmakanda but
> >> > another important class deals with the events mentioned in the shruti.
> >> > The terms Purana and itihasa are used in the Veda itself.  During
> >> sattras
> >> > (yajnas lasting three days or more) it was the custom to pass the time
> >> > between sessions telling stories of old.  And the frame story of the
> >> > extant puranas is usually that of a 100 year sattra held in
> >> Naimisharanya
> >> > by Shaunaka Rshi.  In the chandogyopanishad, Narada tells Sanatakumar
> of
> >> > the various subjects he has studied including Rk, Yajus, Sama, and
> >> > Atharva veda "and itihasapurana which is the fifth."
> >> >
> >> > While astikas do believe the events in itihasa and puranas did take
> >> place,
> >> > according to the Mimamsakas it is a mistake to treat them as
> "history".
> >> > These kind of statements whether in shruti or smrti are arthavada -
> >> > auxilliaries to injunctions to act (or to know according to Vedantins)
> >> > Another example:  the scientist Schrodinger came up with a thought
> >> > experiment involving a cat in a box to illustrate a theory about
> quantum
> >> > physics.  And "Schrodingers cat" has been much debated by physicists
> >> since
> >> > then.  It has even entered popular culture.  But if you ask "Is the
> cat
> >> > striped? Does it like milk?" you are missing the point.  Yes, cats do
> >> have
> >> > different colours of fur.  Yes they do eat different things.  But
> these
> >> > details are irrelevant to the task of explaining a principle of
> physics.
> >> > In the shatapathabrahmana it is said that Janamajaya Parikshita
> >> performed
> >> > the ashvamedha.  The idea is to extol the ashvamedha. i.e. if someone
> as
> >> > illustrious as Janamajaya performed the ashvamedha, you should too.
> In
> >> > the Bhagavatapurana it also says that Janamajaya the son of Parikshita
> >> and
> >> > the grandson of Arjuna the Pandava performed a great yajna as he was
> >> about
> >> > to die from snakebite.  (in fact this is the occasion for the first
> >> > recital of the Bhagavata.)  Both sources are presumably talking about
> >> the
> >> > same event but actually you cannot compare them as they are being told
> >> for
> >> > two different purposes.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > I was interested to know if there is a linear chronological
> >> development
> >> > of
> >> > > these works.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Yes there is. Even according to the astika point of view.  At the
> >> > beginning of each creation cycle, Chaturmukha Brahma "breathes" out
> the
> >> > mantras.  The Rshis "see" them.  This could be a process that takes
> many
> >> > generations.  For instance at the end of each kanda of the
> >> > shatapathabrahmana (of which the Brhadaranyakopanishad is a part)
> there
> >> > is a vamshabrahmana that gives the parampara of that section.  In the
> >> > Dvaparayuga Maharshi Krshna Dvaipayana forseeing the decline in
> >> abilities
> >> > of people in the upcoming kaliyuga collects all these vedic texts and
> >> > arranges them into four (hence he is called Veda Vyasa - the arranger
> >> > of the Vedas) and teaches them to his students who teach them to
> >> > their own students thus founding the shakhas we have today plus many
> >> > others which did not survive for whatever reason.  And out of
> compassion
> >> > for the dvijetara who have no adhikara for Vedas, he took their
> essence
> >> > and composed the Mahabharata and the 18 Mahapuranas.  This illustrates
> >> > another principle of our chronology.  The passage of time is not seen
> as
> >> > progress towards a final or even merely greater levels of revelation
> but
> >> > as a degeneration.  We have more  shastras in number and volume now
> not
> >> > because we are more spiritually advanced but because we are less.
> What
> >> > took one word in "the good old days" takes one thousand now.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > For  example:
> >> > > If we look at Rudra Prashna, we see Rudra as wielding bow and arrow
> >> and
> >> > > other weapons. The same Rudra then transformed into Shiva who is
> >> > wielding a
> >> > > Trishul. So if we take the Veda's Rudra Prashna as the source, and
> >> then
> >> > the
> >> > > source gets multiplied by the later literature, we are arriving at
> >> what
> >> > we
> >> > > have today as the Pradosha Puja, Shivaratri etc.
> >> >
> >> > We have hardly stopped referring to Shiva Bhagavan as a bowman though.
> >> > In the Ramayana it is told how Shri Rama won Sita ma's hand at her
> >> > svayamvara by successfully drawing (and breaking) the Pinaka bow which
> >> had
> >> > temporarily passed from Shiva Bhagavan into the Mithila royal families
> >> > hands due to events.  The Rudri also mentions his blue throat, matted
> >> > hair, snake ornaments not to mention the name Shiva itself in the
> >> context
> >> > of the panchakshari mantra no less.  Why does it not mention trishula?
> >> As
> >> > mentioned before the Shruti does not necessarily give all the details.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > We could take any other God too. For e.g. Garuda who is there in the
> >> > > Shatapatha Brahmana, further in the Mahabharata as the son of Kadru.
> >> > There
> >> > > is the whole Garuda Purana too.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Garuda is in the samhita too.  The mantra suparNo'si... in the
> >> Vajasaneyi
> >> > samhita is used in smarta prayoga for ghanta puja but the shrauta
> >> > application is for the agnichayana.  In this yajna a vedi made of
> bricks
> >> > in the shape of a bird and this bird-altar is honored with this
> mantra.
> >> > It is called Suparna, Garutman (Garuda,) and Tarkshya which are names
> of
> >> > his in Puranas too.
> >> >
> >> > > So can we do a bidirectional traceability between our current image
> of
> >> > Gods
> >> > > and the Vedic Gods? Is there a clear chronological development and
> >> > > transformation of our Gods and our practices?
> >> >
> >> > This implies that the material in the puranas is later which is not
> >> > necessarily a settled fact even if we accept the editorial shape of
> the
> >> > Puranas as we have them is later.  But as this post is already really
> >> long
> >> > I should write about that separately.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
> >> > _______________________________________________
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