[Advaita-l] Commentary on Ramana's Forty Verses

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

My own understanding is that according to Sri Bhagavatpada, Ashrama sanyAsa
is mandatory for jnAna. However I have come across several talks by Swami
Paramarthananda wherein he has stated that such is not the case. But it has
been some time since I have listened to these talks and unfortunately I am
not able to recollect exactly the particular talks nor specific reasons he
had adduced for such a conclusion. So I am unable to respond positively to
your query at this time.

Regards

Chandramouli

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 1:20 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Dear Chandramouliji
>
> What is the rationale for that conclusion, given Sankara is pretty
> unambiguous across his commentaries, especially Aitreya, Brhad, and
> Chandogya - as is Suresvara in his vartika on Brhad?
>
> Thanks,
> venkat
>
> > On 19 Jun 2021, at 17:15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > Namaste.
> >
> > Even among the traditionalists, there is a debate as to whether Sri
> > Bhagavatpada enjoins ashrama sanyasa as a prerequisite for Realization.
> > Swami Paramarthananda himself takes the view that it is not compulsory
> even
> > as per Sri Bhagavatpada.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 9:27 PM Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Namaste Raghavji,
> >>
> >> This is the crux of the matter:
> >>
> >> *Now, to draw a *doctrinal* conclusion about what exactly was Sri
> Ramana's
> >> categorical position on external renunciation, is not possible by merely
> >> quoting what he said to specific aspirants. We will find verses
> supporting
> >> both views about the inevitability of external renunciation or its
> >> orthogonality w.r.t GYAnam from the works. But if we choose to regard
> Sri
> >> Ramana as part of the Advaita vedAnta tradition, then the views of all
> the
> >> advaita Acharya's taken as a whole, have to be considered as final. Any
> >> seeming divergence between Shankara and RM would in such a scheme be a
> >> result of misunderstanding either of them.*
> >>
> >> What's happening here is that a certain *interpretation* of the
> tradition
> >> as emphasizing the importance of physical sannyasa is being *imposed* on
> >> Ramana, when it simply is not there to be observed in his texts.
> >>
> >> We can look at both what Ramana said to *many* different specific
> >> aspirants, plus what he said in his authoritative written works, and
> come
> >> to a very clear conclusion: Ramana did not think physical sannyasa was a
> >> requirement, inevitable, or even necessarily heavily recommended for all
> >> genuine seekers -- though it might be natural and helpful to some.
> Neither
> >> does it necessarily follow for a jnani upon attainment.
> >>
> >> Dharma is not comparable: you will not find Ramana anywhere telling
> people
> >> that whether one is dharmic or not is unimportant as a seeker. Not to
> speak
> >> to seekers "at their level" or otherwise. Whereas he consistently
> asserted
> >> that physical sannyasa was merely a subsidiary thing to the real
> sannyasa,
> >> which was mental.
> >>
> >> Ramana doesn't mention physical sannyasa in the major works that are
> from
> >> his pen -- Nan Yar, Upadesa Saram, and Ulladu Narpadu.
> >>
> >> And as far as GVK, again, his real point can be seen in GVK 840:
> >>
> >> "Know that, rather than one’s thinking in the heart ‘I have renounced
> >> everything’, one’s not thinking ‘I am limited to the measure of the
> body,
> >> and I am caught in the mean bondage of family life’, is a superior
> >> renunciation."...
> >>
> >> If the tradition does indeed put such an emphasis on physical sannyasa,
> >> then Sri Ramana and the tradition put different emphases on these
> things.
> >>
> >> Akilesh
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:10 AM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> namaste
> >>> thank you all for an interesting discussion.
> >>>
> >>> it is clear that Sri Ramana in GVK of Muruganar indicates external
> >>> renunciation (a la Murugunar himself who though not a sannyasi still
> >>> adhered to an austere life of a sadhu) is the *default occurrence* in
> the
> >>> life journey towards self-knowledge in as much as a ripe fruit falls.
> >>> Unripe fruits hang on. The exception of a black swan event of some rare
> >>> over ripe fruits hanging on to the tree, cannot be used to claim a
> >>> principle that external renunciation I.e., withdrawal from money and
> >>> pleasure pursuits does not occur or is inconsequential for GYAnam.
> >>>
> >>> We can as well say that leading an ethical dharmic life is also not
> >>> enjoined. Because Ravana and Sisupala and other demons were granted
> >>> liberation (be it even kramamukti).  So can we say dharma too is
> >> orthogonal
> >>> to GYAnam. No we cannot.
> >>>
> >>> Why do we even need to purify the mind? After all, RM taught that we
> are
> >>> not the mind. Such can be the incorrect logic.
> >>>
> >>> That's a misunderstanding of Advaita Vedanta to suggest that because
> >> Janaka
> >>> was a king etc, so external renunciation is unimportant. External
> >>> renunciation is the default course which naturally occurs upon
> maturity.
> >>> Its such a no-brainer.
> >>>
> >>> Also regarding the loka saMgraha idea, its in fact sannyAsa thats more
> >>> helpful for loka saMgraha than doing let's say some corporate job while
> >>> claiming or silently presuming non-doership to rationalize one's
> pursuit
> >> of
> >>> desires of artha and kAma.
> >>>
> >>> Sri Ramakrishna's words in a conversation come to mind-
> >>> "a man cannot act as an Āchārya without renouncing the world. People
> >> won't
> >>> respect
> >>> him. They will say: 'Oh, he is a worldly man. He secretly enjoys "lust
> >> and
> >>> lucre" himself but tells us that God alone is real and the world
> >>> unsubstantial, like a dream. Unless a man renounces everything, his
> >>> teachings cannot be accepted by all. Only some worldly people may
> follow
> >>> him (if there is no external renunciation). Keshab (a well known
> >> grihastha
> >>> spiritual teacher) led the life of a householder; hence his mind was
> >>> directed to the world also. He had to safeguard his family interests.
> >> That
> >>> is why he left his affairs in such good order though he delivered so
> many
> >>> religious lectures. What an aristocratic man he married his daughter
> to!
> >>> Inside Keshab's inner apartments I saw many big bedsteads. All these
> >> things
> >>> gradually come to one who leads a householder's life. The world is
> >> indeed a
> >>> place for enjoyment.
> >>>
> >>> Chaitanyadeva renounced the world *to set an example to mankind*. The
> >>> sannyasi is a *world teacher*. "The sannyasi must renounce 'lust and
> >> lucre'
> >>> for his own welfare. Even if he is unattached, and consequently not in
> >>> danger, still, *in order to set an example to others*, he must not keep
> >>> 'kAminI and kAnchana' near him. The sannyasi, the man of renunciation,
> >> is a
> >>> world teacher. It is his example that awakens the spiritual
> consciousness
> >>> of men."  (So much for people wanting to continue other pursuits for
> loka
> >>> saMgraha).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> One last point is that as Sri Ven Balakrishnan ji pointed out ,
> >>> desirelessness is a concomittant of GYAnam. If avidyA is destroyed,
> >> desires
> >>> for artha kAma drop away. The sequence of avidyA --> kAma -> karma is
> >>> fundamental. And external renunciation naturally follows.
> >>>
> >>> What about a GYAnI eating etc? The Advaita tradition makes a clear
> >>> distinction between those actions that are for bare minimum protection
> of
> >>> sharIra-mAtra such as eating of alms etc. by a sannyasi, particularly
> >> when
> >>> food is available upon making efforts for it in a limited way.
> >>>
> >>> To generalize from that austere maintenance of the body by a GYAnI to
> >> draw
> >>> equivalence with another person actively outwardly pursuing wealth and
> >>> pleasure is inappropriate.
> >>>
> >>> Sri Ramana lived for years on frugal food, with just boiled rice with
> no
> >>> salt on innumerable occasions. In later years, he would be offered
> coffee
> >>> every day, regarded as a minor indulgence in those times. (1920s). He
> >> would
> >>> say that people offered him coffee, so that they could themselves
> indulge
> >>> in their coffee addiction by saying that after all, even the swami
> drinks
> >>> coffee!
> >>>
> >>> The modern mind loves the idea that nothing  changes externally
> >>> lifestyle-wise. Its a purely mental thing. And many modern Gurus
> >>> particularly of neo-advaita leanings, are saying what the audience
> wants
> >> to
> >>> hear. In the case of Sri Ramana, he himself lived like a mendicant and
> >> told
> >>> people not to put the cart before the horse by a forced renunciation
> >> before
> >>> maturity. Thats authentic. RM endorsed his nephew's decision to lead a
> >>> nivRtti lifestyle.
> >>>
> >>> Now, to draw a *doctrinal* conclusion about what exactly was Sri
> Ramana's
> >>> categorical position on external renunciation, is not possible by
> merely
> >>> quoting what he said to specific aspirants. We will find verses
> >> supporting
> >>> both views about the inevitability of external renunciation or its
> >>> orthogonality w.r.t GYAnam from the works. But if we choose to regard
> Sri
> >>> Ramana as part of the Advaita vedAnta tradition, then the views of all
> >> the
> >>> advaita Acharya's taken as a whole, have to be considered as final. Any
> >>> seeming divergence between Shankara and RM would in such a scheme be a
> >>> result of misunderstanding either of them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Om
> >>> Raghav
> >>>
> >> ᐧ
> >> ᐧ
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