[Advaita-l] Karma yoga: the kinder, softer preparation for self-inquiry and surrender

[Akilesh Ayyar]

Namaste,

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:30 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Hi Akilesh,
>
> Two points:
>
> 1.  If SINCERE mental renunciation has happened, then discussion about
> physical renunciation is a moot point.  The likelihood is that with mental
> desirelessness and renunciation, everything else falls away, unless, as
> Bhagan says, one unfortunate prarabdha dictates otherwise.  I’m always
> bemused by people implying that mental renunciation is different from
> physical - unless one is trying to convince oneself that 'I have mentally
> renounced and have gained knowledge, and so I can still hang on to my
> desires / possessions, because I have renounced (really!)’.  Seems like
> self-deception to me, but that is for each to work out.


As Ramana mentions in several places, physical sannyasa is also a set of
vasanas. Self-deception is equally possible in any ashrama as respects
jnana.


>
> Physical without mental is pointless; mental without physical may be
> theoretically feasible but if one if being honest.  That seems to me to be
> the gist of GVK’s verses.
>

If that were the case, it's surprising, again, that there is *no* mention
of physical renunciation at all in Self-Enquiry, Who Am I, Forty Verses and
Supplement, or Upadesa Saram, and that it contradicts all the recorded
statements of Maharshi's to seekers on the question. Maharshi's position is
that sannyasa is a good thing for those who are suited to it, if that is
the way one's karma is oriented, but it is far from necessary for the
seeker.

Again, in another dialogue recorded in Upadesa Manjari, Maharshi says:

*22. Is asceticism (sannyasa) one of the essential requisites for a person
to become established in the Self (atmanishta)?*

*The effort that is made to get rid of attachment to one’s body is really
towards abiding in the Self. Maturity of thought and enquiry alone removes
attachment to the body, not the stations of life (ashramas), such as
student (brahmachari), etc. For the attachment is in the mind while the
stations pertain to the body. How can bodily stations remove the attachment
in the mind? As maturity of thought and enquiry pertain to the mind, these
alone can, by enquiry on the part of the same mind, remove the attachments
which have crept into it through thoughtlessness. But, as the discipline of
asceticism (sannyasashrama) is the means for attaining dispassion
(vairagya), and as dispassion is the means for enquiry, joining an order of
ascetics may be regarded, in a way, as a means of enquiry through
dispassion. Instead of wasting one’s life by entering the order of ascetics
before one is fit for it, it is better to live the householder’s life. In
order to fix the mind in the Self which is its true nature it is necessary
to separate it from the family of fancies (sankalpas) and doubts
(vikalpas), that is to renounce the family (samsara) in the mind. This is
real asceticism.*

*23. It is an established rule that so long as there is the least idea of
‘I-am-the-doer,’ Self-knowledge cannot be attained, but is it possible for
an aspirant who is a householder to discharge his duties properly without
this sense?*

*As there is no rule that action should depend upon a sense of being the
doer it is unnecessary to doubt whether any action will take place without
a doer or an act of doing. Although the officer of a government treasury
may appear, in the eyes of others, to be doing his duty attentively and
responsibly all day long, he will be discharging his duties without
attachment, thinking ‘I have no real connection with all this money’ and
without a sense of involvement in his mind. In the same manner a wise
householder may also discharge without attachment the various household
duties which fall to his lot according to his past karma, like a tool in
the hands of another. Action and knowledge are not obstacles to each other.*

Here he acknowledges that sannyasa can be a useful tool for those who are
fit for it, but again, it is not necessary -- nor even recommended except
for those whose nature and karma is bent in that way. Action & knowledge
are not opposed.

Akilesh Ayyar
Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/


>
>
>
> > On 19 Mar 2021, at 13:38, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > Namaste Venkat,
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:57 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Apologies, I am joining the discussion late.  But I noted that someone
> >> asked where has Ramanamaharishi ever stated that renunciation is
> necessary.
> >>
> >> In Guru Vachaka Kovai, the most authentic collection from his talks,
> which
> >> he himself proofed:
> >>
> >> 828: The path of sannyasa is like treading on slippery ground. Even if a
> >> slip only occurs in the mind, great harm is still sure to result.  It is
> >> therefore the duty of the person who Is walking on the slippery ground
> of
> >> sannyaa to ensure, by vigilance, that the perfidious pramada does not
> gain
> >> clandestine access into his heart.
> >>
> >
> > Yet Maharshi has defined, in this very same book, what sannyasa actually
> > means.
> >
> > 162: "He who has destroyed the ego is alone the true Sannyasin, and the
> > true Brahmin; but, hard indeed is the complete destruction of the heavy
> > burden of the ego borne by those Sannyasins who feel “I belong to the
> > highest ashrama” and by those brahmins who feel “I belong to the highest
> > caste”.
> >
> > It is not defined by ashrama, it is defined by mindset.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> 829: It is impossible for anyone to determine definitively his lifespan.
> >> Therefore for the jivas who are trying hard to attain the powerful
> state of
> >> kaivalyam, it is most beneficial to renounce the world without delay, at
> >> the very moment that aversion to the body and the world arises.
> >>
> >
> > Maharshi has defined in this same book the real meaning of renunciation,
> > too.
> >
> > 840: "Know that, rather than one’s thinking in the heart ‘I have
> renounced
> > everything’, one’s not thinking ‘I am limited to the measure of the body,
> > and I am caught in the mean bondage of family life’, is a superior
> > renunciation."
> >
> >
> >>
> >> 830: Just as a ripened fruit separates effortlessly from the tree and
> >> falls, when a sadhaka who is aiming to merge his mind in the supreme
> >> attains maturity, he will definitely renounce family life as unsalted
> gruel
> >> unless his unfavourable prarabdha stands in the way
> >>
> >
> > "...*unless his unfavourable prarabhda stands in the way*." Meaning
> >
> > a) it will not necessarily happen, even for the most sincere seekers
> > and
> > b) it is not required for realization
> >
> >
> >>
> >> 831: Only those who have extricated themselves from the multitude of
> >> things that, like a dream, appear within them, by regarding those
> things as
> >> mere imagination, will root out the deception, the illusory corruption.
> >> None of the others willl know the means to put an end to that
> corruption.
> >>
> >
> > And 837: "For those who have made the rarest renunciation, that of the
> ego,
> > nothing remains to be renounced."
> >
> > Again, the real renunciation is the mind.
> >
> > Look at all of Maharshi's other texts: his 40 verses and supplement, his
> > upadesa saram, and all of his many talks, and you will find the views
> there
> > consistent with what I have said.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> And he goes on with further verses.
> >>
> >> For Ramanamaharishi, who viewed the world as entirely unreal,
> renunciation
> >> would natural - like a ripe fruit falling - as understanding
> accumulated.
> >> However for him, there was no point in mere physical renunciation
> without
> >> mental renunciation as well.  Hence if someone had to ask whether to
> >> renounce, then the mere fact of asking showed that s/he was not ready
> for
> >> renunciation - so why confuse or add to the mental burden of such a
> >> seeker.  And as Krishna notes in BG, only the very rare seeker attains
> >> jnana - hence for the majority of us, we still have to perform sadhanas
> as
> >> best as possible . . . until we are ready.
> >>
> >
> > That's a distortion of Maharshi's views. Maharshi would say what was true
> > if someone asked him directly. People asked him if being vegetarian was
> > good. He responded that it was. People asked him if inquiry was good --
> he
> > would say that it was, whether or not they were "qualified" to do it per
> > "traditional" advaita guidelines.
> >
> > Maharshi didn't lie about his positions for the so-called "benefit" of
> the
> > seeker when asked directly. And he was asked directly about physical
> > sannyasa several times, and responded in each case in the same way, that
> it
> > was not necessary, that the mental thing was what was essential.
> >
> > Akilesh
> > Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> venkat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> >> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >>
> >> For assistance, contact:
> >> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >>
> > ᐧ
> > ᐧ
> > ᐧ
> > ᐧ
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
ᐧ
ᐧ