[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms
There is discussion on this aspect - in the Methods of Knowledge by Swami Satprakashanandaji - P. 53 - with the subtitle: 10: How the sense-organs come in contact with their respective objects. 
Hari Om!Sadananda
 

    On Monday, May 10, 2021, 01:48:54 PM EDT, Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:  
 
 Hari Om Raghav ji,

So how do you reconcile the time lag of perception of sound and light in
lightning within the traditional advaita vedanta framework.

Sudhanshu

On Mon, 10 May, 2021, 10:45 pm Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Sudhanshu ji
>
> We can look at one implicit consequence of the idea of both m+c or m+s.
>
> this idea of m+c has to square with us being able to just *choose to* look
> up in an instant and see the andromeda galaxy as it was 2.2 million years
> ago.  If the mind+chakshu starts travelling *after* we choose to look up,
> when is it supposed to teach the vishaya which is 2.2 million years away?
>
>
> If we accept the veechi taranga nyaya, this problem is not there. The
> indriyas (sUxma) receive tarangaas at the sthUla golakas with suitable time
> delays in keeping with the speeds of light and sound and these then lead to
> forming a stream of vRttis instantaneously.
>
> The idea of the indriya managing to give instantaneous updates from a
> distant stellar object (as implied by the idea that the indriya once it
> reaches the vishaya can give instantaneous live updates of changes
> happening at the location of the viShaya) is against empirical evidence.
>
> We need to first decide whether the role played by the veechis and sthUla
> golakas (physical eye etc). And by the use of the traditionally accepted
> ideas of sthUla indriya golakas and sUxma indriyas, we can do so without
> inviting the charge of representationalism.
>
>
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
> On Mon, 10 May, 2021, 9:30 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Hari Om,
> >
> > // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom//
> >
> > There is a tika on VP by Panchanan Shastri ji . There he writes -- स्वत
> एव
> > स्वसामर्थ्यादेव स्वस्थानस्थिते एव  वा। तेन विषयसम्बन्धदशायां देहस्य न
> > निरिन्द्रियत्वापत्तिरिति भाव:। Siddhant Bindu commentary also mentions it
> > -- चक्षुरादीन्द्रियस्य  यथा जीवनदशायां न शरीरत्याग: .  Basically, chakshu
> > and shrotra both elongate and span from body to vishaya the moment they
> > face rupa and shabda. And then IF antahkaran rides over them and goes to
> > vishaya, there is pratyaksha. Otherwise, though chakshu-vishay sanyog is
> > there, there is no pratyaksha.
> >
> > If we presume that the दंडायमानत्व of chakshu and formation of
> mano-vritti
> > is always together, as Chandramouli ji suggests, there will be no
> > explanation of situation when see but do not cognise as Siddhant Bindu
> > commentary suggests on page 103--
> >
> > मनोsसंयुक्तचक्षुर्विषयसंयोगे तादृश शक्तिविशेषास्वीकरेण .....
> >
> > So my understanding is -- (I may be wrong. If we can confirm it, it will
> be
> > great). Whenever chakshu/shrota face respective vishaya, they immediately
> > become dandaayamaan and touch both body and vishaya. If mind comes, rides
> > over them and forms vritti, we get pratyaksha. If mind is
> > असंयुक्त with chakshu/shrota and chakshu/shrotra has samyog with vishaya
> -
> > then there will be no pratyaksha. It also explains Paribhasha drishtant
> --
> > there is a canal, and channel is already built connecting canal to field,
> > water passes through channel and goes to field. Similarly, hole in canal
> =
> > indriyagolak, channel = dandaayamaan chakshu, water = antahkaran.. that
> is
> > my understanding.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 10 May 2021, 15:39 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:15 PM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
> > >>
> > >> Reg  << Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
> > >> shrotra are already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to
> go
> > >> there >>
> > >>
> > >> And
> > >>
> > >> << When there is indriya-vishay sanikarsha, the indriya does not leave
> > >> it's
> > >> place in body.. it stretches out till vishaya.. otherwise there will
> be
> > >> निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति of body >>,
> > >>
> > >
> > > Vedanta Paribhasha:
> > >
> > > तत्र घटाद्यवच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं विषयचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणवृत्त्यवच्छिन्नं
> > > चैतन्यं प्रमाणचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणावच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं प्रमातृचैतन्यम् ।
> > >  तत्र यथा तडागोदकं छिद्रान्निर्गत्य कुल्यात्मना केदारान् प्रविश्य
> तद्वदेव
> > > चतुष्कोणाद्याकारं भवति, तथा तैजसमन्तःकरणमपि चक्षुरादिद्वारा निर्गत्य
> > > घटादिविषयदेशं गत्वा घटादिविषयाकारेण परिणमते । स एव परिणामो
> > > वृत्तिरित्युच्यते ।    This, read with the following concluding part of
> > the
> > > Pratyaksha Pariccheda of the Vedanta Paribhasha:  चक्षुःश्रोत्रे तु
> स्वत
> > > एव विषयदेशं गत्वा स्वस्वविषयं गृह्णीतः, श्रोत्रस्यापि चक्षुरादिवत्
> > > परिच्छिन्नतया भेर्यादिदेशगमनसम्भवात् ।    gives us the idea:
> > antaHkaraNam
> > > going out 'through' the chakshurindriya means: the chakshurindriya too
> > goes
> > > out, along with the anathkaraNam to the vishayadesha to contact the
> > > vishaya.
> > >
> > > // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom?
> > >
> > > In Prashna and other Upanishads there is a story, only a story, where
> > each
> > > indirya will leave the body for one year and return to find that he has
> > > been carrying on without that particular indriya.  This is just a
> story,
> > > but yet the  निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति is there.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > subbu
> > >
> > >>
> > >> दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is same as manOvritti issuing through the
> > श्रोत्र
> > >> indriya. It stretches out till the location of vishaya. However there
> > is a
> > >> continuous stream of such vrittis, each extending out the same way.
> Each
> > >> vritti covers one cognition. Hence there is  continuity in the
> > cognitions.
> > >> Thus the condition considered by you
> > >>
> > >> << Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
> of
> > >> both a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
> > >> perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10 >>
> > >>
> > >> does not arise.
> > >>
> > >> Reg  << It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created
> >>,
> > >>
> > >> As said above, continuous stream of vrittis is already in position.
> Each
> > >> new cognition is by way of the succeeding vritti.
> > >>
> > >> I hope I have clarified my understanding.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> Chandramouli
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:07 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> > >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > My understanding is as follows. Kindly correct Chandramouli ji.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is a दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति which spans from our body till
> > >> vishay
> > >> > desha. Riding on that the antahkaran forms antahkaran vritti from
> our
> > >> body
> > >> > till vishay desha. There owing to samyoga of shrotra and vishaya,
> mind
> > >> > forms vsihayAkAra vritti.
> > >> >
> > >> > Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
> shrotra
> > >> are
> > >> > already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to go there.
> If
> > >> due
> > >> > to change in frequency, it is argued that new vishaya has come about
> > >> > needing new vritti, then let us keep the frequency same and switch
> off
> > >> the
> > >> > source after 5 minutes.
> > >> >
> > >> > Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
> of
> > >> both
> > >> > a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
> > >> > perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10.
> > >> >
> > >> > It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> <
> > >>
> >
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