[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Mind also elongates only. It is like channel-water thing in Vedanta
Paribhasha drishtant. Just as chakshu elongates, mind also elongates.

On Tue, 11 May 2021, 10:04 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:30 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hari Om V Subramanian ji,
>>
>> Yes. Gatva means elongation of chakshu and shrotra reaching the object.
>> They don't leave the body and yet go to object by elongation.
>>
>
> When we admit the mind 'going' to the object, are we not admitting that
> the body, for that time span, sans the mind?  Just like 'nirindiryatva
> aapatti' is there not a 'nirmanastva aapatti'?
>
> Sri Sastriji had also, upon my prompting, added that the chakshus is
> tejodravyam and the shrotrendriyam is 'aakaasheeya dravyam'.
>
> regards
> subbu
>
>>
>> One clarification I want. Is sound and shabda the same. In my view, they
>> cannot. Shabda is a guna of akasha. Shrotra has shabda as vishaya and not
>> sound. In outer space, we cannot hear sound. But since akasha is there,
>> theoretically shrotra can still cognize shabda.
>>
>> I think difference in shabda and sound AND rupa and light can solve the
>> riddle.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Tue, 11 May, 2021, 4:16 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sudhamshu ji,
>>>
>>> Does elongation/dandaayamaana mean the same as चक्षुःश्रोत्रे तु स्वत
>>> एव विषयदेशं गत्वा स्वस्वविषयं गृह्णीतः, श्रोत्रस्यापि if the VP? In other
>>> words does elongation translate to 'gatvaa'? Is 'going' the same as as
>>> elongation in this context?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> subbu
>>>
>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021, 7:03 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar, <
>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hari Om,
>>>>
>>>> // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom//
>>>>
>>>> There is a tika on VP by Panchanan Shastri ji . There he writes -- स्वत
>>>> एव स्वसामर्थ्यादेव स्वस्थानस्थिते एव  वा। तेन विषयसम्बन्धदशायां देहस्य न
>>>> निरिन्द्रियत्वापत्तिरिति भाव:। Siddhant Bindu commentary also mentions it
>>>> -- चक्षुरादीन्द्रियस्य  यथा जीवनदशायां न शरीरत्याग: .  Basically,
>>>> chakshu and shrotra both elongate and span from body to vishaya the moment
>>>> they face rupa and shabda. And then IF antahkaran rides over them and goes
>>>> to vishaya, there is pratyaksha. Otherwise, though chakshu-vishay sanyog is
>>>> there, there is no pratyaksha.
>>>>
>>>> If we presume that the दंडायमानत्व of chakshu and formation of
>>>> mano-vritti is always together, as Chandramouli ji suggests, there will be
>>>> no explanation of situation when see but do not cognise as Siddhant Bindu
>>>> commentary suggests on page 103--
>>>>
>>>> मनोsसंयुक्तचक्षुर्विषयसंयोगे तादृश शक्तिविशेषास्वीकरेण .....
>>>>
>>>> So my understanding is -- (I may be wrong. If we can confirm it, it
>>>> will be great). Whenever chakshu/shrota face respective vishaya, they
>>>> immediately become dandaayamaan and touch both body and vishaya. If mind
>>>> comes, rides over them and forms vritti, we get pratyaksha. If mind is
>>>> असंयुक्त with chakshu/shrota and chakshu/shrotra has samyog with
>>>> vishaya - then there will be no pratyaksha. It also explains Paribhasha
>>>> drishtant -- there is a canal, and channel is already built connecting
>>>> canal to field, water passes through channel and goes to field. Similarly,
>>>> hole in canal = indriyagolak, channel = dandaayamaan chakshu, water =
>>>> antahkaran.. that is my understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021, 15:39 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:15 PM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reg  << Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
>>>>>> shrotra are already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> there >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And
>>>>>>
>>>>>> << When there is indriya-vishay sanikarsha, the indriya does not
>>>>>> leave it's
>>>>>> place in body.. it stretches out till vishaya.. otherwise there will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति of body >>,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vedanta Paribhasha:
>>>>>
>>>>> तत्र घटाद्यवच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं विषयचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणवृत्त्यवच्छिन्नं
>>>>> चैतन्यं प्रमाणचैतन्यम् , अन्तःकरणावच्छिन्नं चैतन्यं प्रमातृचैतन्यम् ।
>>>>>  तत्र यथा तडागोदकं छिद्रान्निर्गत्य कुल्यात्मना केदारान् प्रविश्य
>>>>> तद्वदेव चतुष्कोणाद्याकारं भवति, तथा तैजसमन्तःकरणमपि चक्षुरादिद्वारा
>>>>> निर्गत्य घटादिविषयदेशं गत्वा घटादिविषयाकारेण परिणमते । स एव परिणामो
>>>>> वृत्तिरित्युच्यते ।    This, read with the following concluding part of the
>>>>> Pratyaksha Pariccheda of the Vedanta Paribhasha:   चक्षुःश्रोत्रे तु स्वत
>>>>> एव विषयदेशं गत्वा स्वस्वविषयं गृह्णीतः, श्रोत्रस्यापि चक्षुरादिवत्
>>>>> परिच्छिन्नतया भेर्यादिदेशगमनसम्भवात् ।     gives us the idea: antaHkaraNam
>>>>> going out 'through' the chakshurindriya means: the chakshurindriya too goes
>>>>> out, along with the anathkaraNam to the vishayadesha to contact the
>>>>> vishaya.
>>>>>
>>>>> // निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति//  whose objection is this, on whom?
>>>>>
>>>>> In Prashna and other Upanishads there is a story, only a story, where
>>>>> each indirya will leave the body for one year and return to find that he
>>>>> has been carrying on without that particular indriya.  This is just a
>>>>> story, but yet the  निरिन्द्रियत्व आपत्ति is there.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>> subbu
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is same as manOvritti issuing through the
>>>>>> श्रोत्र
>>>>>> indriya. It stretches out till the location of vishaya. However there
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> continuous stream of such vrittis, each extending out the same way.
>>>>>> Each
>>>>>> vritti covers one cognition. Hence there is  continuity in the
>>>>>> cognitions.
>>>>>> Thus the condition considered by you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> << Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> both a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
>>>>>> perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10 >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> does not arise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reg  << It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created
>>>>>> >>,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As said above, continuous stream of vrittis is already in position.
>>>>>> Each
>>>>>> new cognition is by way of the succeeding vritti.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope I have clarified my understanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Chandramouli
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:07 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > My understanding is as follows. Kindly correct Chandramouli ji.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > There is a दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति which spans from our body till
>>>>>> vishay
>>>>>> > desha. Riding on that the antahkaran forms antahkaran vritti from
>>>>>> our body
>>>>>> > till vishay desha. There owing to samyoga of shrotra and vishaya,
>>>>>> mind
>>>>>> > forms vsihayAkAra vritti.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Now once this दण्डायमान श्रोत्र वृत्ति is formed and mind and
>>>>>> shrotra are
>>>>>> > already there at vishaya desha, how will again it need to go there.
>>>>>> If due
>>>>>> > to change in frequency, it is argued that new vishaya has come about
>>>>>> > needing new vritti, then let us keep the frequency same and switch
>>>>>> off the
>>>>>> > source after 5 minutes.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Considering that vishaya is same, vritti remains same. Mind+shrota
>>>>>> of both
>>>>>> > a and b are in vishaya desha. Yet, at 10.05.01, a has no auditory
>>>>>> > perception but b will continue to have perception till 10.05.10.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It cannot be argued that every moment new vritti is created.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regards
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
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