[Advaita-l] [advaitin] 'Dvaita accepts body-adhyasa'

[Vinodh]

Namaskaram Sri Prasadji,

Thank you for your kind explanation. If I understood it correctly, you are
presenting the Advaitic viewpoint based on Sruthi, which I am able to
follow.

At the same time, other Astika schools which also accept the authority of
the Sruti seem to claim something different from Advaita while still
accepting the superposition of the body-mind on the Self. In this context,
my question is whether the superposition alone is enough (read as
'sufficient condition' in terms of mathematical language) to establish that
the body-mind is also avidya. This does not seem to be the case because, at
least in my limited understanding, schools like Sankhya posit a Pradhana
that is inert and independent of the Purusha and the Purusha experiences
the Pradhana without clearly seeing the difference between itself and
Pradhana. The Dvaita school also posits that a Paramatma has created this
world (including individual body-mind) as well as all the Jivas which
reside in them, but the Jivas suffer because of the superposition of the
body-mind on themselves thinking "I am this body" or "This is mine" etc.

This question arises because of the thread's subject being "Dvaita accepts
body-adhyaasa" and the subsequent claim by Sri Subbuji that this
superposition alone implies that all vyavahara is in avidya and
consequently the Dvaitic schools must also accept the Advaitic view only.
The Adhyasa Bhashya was referenced for supporting this claim. In it, an
additional assertion (by which I mean a statement without a substantiating
evidence or argument) appears to be made that the body-mind has avidya for
a material cause. When this  assertion is taken together with the adhyaasa
of the body-mind on the self (adhyaasa being an effect of avidya) and the
fact that such an adhyaasa is necessary for any vyavahara implies that all
vyavahara happens in avidya. However, it seems that without this assertion
the same conclusion cannot be made.

Therefore, my question is whether dvaitic schools do not accept the
assertion that the body-mind has avidya for a material cause and therefore
whether this is the reason why although they accept the body-mind adhyaasa
they do not necessarily reach the same conclusion as Advaita. If this is
the case, then why is it that they are unable to accept that body-mind as
springing out of avidya? Is it because they posit that a Paramatma is the
cause for the jagat and that He is not touched by avidya?

In essence, I am trying to understand where and why the Dvaitic schools
differ in their conclusion from Advaita even though they accept the same
Sruti and accept several things that are common with Advaita like body-mind
adhyaasa. Why do they stop short of the final conclusion of Advaita even
while there are many similarities? What is it they are unable to agree with
on Advaita and why?

I hope I have been able to explain my question a bit more clearly now. I
would appreciate any thoughts on the above. 🙏


On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:55 PM Prasad <joytruthlove.aum at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sri Gurubhyo Namaha
>
> I am not a scholar. But I could confess to have listened to a fair bit
> from various teachers in the Arsha Vidya Parampara and read and tried to
> understand a few more things based on whatever understanding I gained from
> them.
>
> Vinodh ji says/asks -
>
> *"Because without this additional assertion that avidya is a material
> cause for body-mind, it is not entirely clear if it follows just from the
> body-mind adhyaasa on the self that all vyavahara is in avidya. Any
> thoughts on this would be highly appreciated. 🙏"*
>
> I have a feeling that this assertion should be first refined - as in the
> statement does not make it clear what the status of the body-mind is.
> Avidya is a material cause for the body-mind* when they are assumed to be
> different from oneself*. That is - *"I am the knower, and this is my
> body-mind which is different from me, and exists independently of my
> existence"* - such a statement suggests that the person has only gone
> half-the-distance. The person has found this, say via the Shruti or
> equivalently by drg-drushya prakriya. However, the Shruti goes a step
> further and says that this distinction is not real, in the sense that the
> body-mind does not exist independently of the Self.
>
> This assumption of "independent existence of the body-mind" is based on a
> lack of knowledge of the Self. This independent-existence assumption does
> not have any pramaana proving it. Hence this is an adhyaasa cause by avidya
> (advaita Atma avidya), which disappears upon the enquiry into the Self via
> the Shruti (that results in the knowledge of the Advaita Atma by resolving
> the existence of the body-mind into its true cause which is the Atman).
>
> As long as the true cause is not known, but the body-mind are seen to
> exist "independently" of oneself, their cause is Self-ignorance. When the
> body-mind's true cause (the Atman) is known and they are resolved via
> understanding into this cause, the body-mind cease to have any independent
> existence apart from oneself, hence the words "body-mind" do not point to
> any second object apart from oneself. This is knowledge because of which
> the body-mind ceases to exist. Thus Advaita Atma vidya destroys the
> independent existence of a body-mind and therefore samsara which follows
> from it.
>
> My two paise,
> - Prasad
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:49 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This translation of the lectures of Sri Mani Dravid Shastri seems
>> relevant to the question:
>> https://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/snsastri/adhyasabhashya.pdf
>>
>> Quote: "It has been established that there is mutual superimposition
>> between the self which is pure consciousness, and the not-self consisting
>> of the body, mind and senses. Such a superimposition is essential for a
>> jiva to become a knower (pramaataa). Only if the jiva becomes a pramaataa
>> he can experience objects through the sense-organs. Only then he becomes a
>> seer, hearer, thinker, etc. Even for the Saastra to be applicable there has
>> to be superimposition. For performing the rituals laid down in the Vedas
>> for attaining heaven the person should know that there is a self which is
>> different from the gross body and which will continue after death. But he
>> need not know the real nature of the self as described in Vedanta. If he
>> knows the real nature of the self it will be an obstacle to his performing
>> the rituals laid down in the Vedas because there is nothing to be attained
>> by such a person. Rituals are laid down based on caste such as Brahmana,
>> etc., ashrama, age, etc. So a person has to identify himself as a Brahmana
>> or a grihasta, etc., to perform rituals. All these relate to the body. Such
>> identification is possible only if there is adhyaasa of the body on the
>> self."
>>
>> In the above, it is stated that the adhyaasa of the body, mind, and
>> senses on the self is essential for any vyavahara. So far, I assume the
>> argument is understandable.
>>
>> The question that remains from the Dvaita perspective is: why can it not
>> be that the self as well as the body-mind-senses are both real? And that
>> there is a self for a Jiva and a different self for a Paramatma, for
>> example? It could still be that, in this case, the superimposition of the
>> body-mind-senses is a cause of suffering for the Jiva. But this
>> superimposition does not necessarily imply that the body-mind-senses
>> themselves are unreal.
>>
>> There seems to be a somewhat similar question raised in the above text
>> (quoted below), but it seems to be answered by an assertion that the
>> body-mind-senses are not just made of panchabhootas as material cause, but
>> are also made of avidya as a material cause. And therefore, it is not a
>> matter of thinking one thing for another (misapprehension).
>>
>> I suppose this assertion that body-mind-senses have avidya as material
>> cause is not accepted by the other schools? Because without this additional
>> assertion that avidya is a material cause for body-mind, it is not entirely
>> clear if it follows just from the body-mind adhyaasa on the self that all
>> vyavahara is in avidya. Any thoughts on this would be highly appreciated. 🙏
>>
>> Quote: "Can the attribution of the qualities of the body, mind and senses
>> to the self be said to be anyathakhyati? Here also the answer is, no. The
>> material cause of the body is not only the five elements but also the
>> nescience relating to the particular jiva. Since nescience is
>> anirvachaniyam, its effect, the body, is also the same. In this view maya
>> is the totality and individual nescience is a part of it. The body is not
>> something already existing elsewhere but it has come into existence from
>> the individual nescience. So anyathakhyati is not applicable."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 4:30 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for the clarification, Sri Subbuji.
>>>
>>> Could you please elaborate on (or point to the place in the Adhyasa
>>> Bhashya where it is shown) how the body-adhyasa (alone) leads to the
>>> conclusion that all pramana-prameya vyavahara is happening in avidya?
>>>
>>> The reason for asking this is that I thought that the Samkhya school
>>> (and other Dvaitic shools) claims that the body-mind is sat (existent) and
>>> part of Prakriti (insentient) and it is only an error on part of the
>>> sentient Purusha to not see the difference between itself and the
>>> insentient? In this case, it seems to me that they argue that while the
>>> body-adhyasa on the Purusha is an error, this does not necessarily mean
>>> that body-mind is avidya kalpita.
>>>
>>> So I am curious to know how the admission of body-adhyasa (alone)
>>> necessarily leads to the consequence of all vyavahara being in the realm of
>>> avidya according to the Adhyaasa Bhashya.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 1:27 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:11 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaskaram,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindly pardon any ignorance on my part, but I thought that
>>>>> body-adhyasa was always accepted by Dvaita? In other words, I assumed that
>>>>> Dvaitins hold that the Jivaatma which is chaitanya-svaroopa (nature of
>>>>> consciousness or sentient) is falsely imagining itself to be the body which
>>>>> is jada (insentient). This is, in my limited understanding, similar
>>>>> to the view of the Samkhya philosophy where the (multiple) Purushas which
>>>>> are sentient experience the Prakriti which is insentient (and makes up 24
>>>>> tattvas including the five panchabhootas of which the body is made) while
>>>>> not realizing the difference between Purusha and Prakriti.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is my understanding that the main difference of Advaita to these
>>>>> philosophies is not the body-adhyasa but rather the Jiva-Brahma-aikyam
>>>>> (one-ness of the Jiva and Brahman).
>>>>>
>>>>> So this post makes me wonder if there anything new (or surprising)
>>>>> about Dvaitins accepting body-adhyasa.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That all aastika schools hold the Atma to be distinct from the
>>>> body-mind complex is well known. The purpose of mentioning this with
>>>> reference to Dvaita is that the consequence of the error (of taking the
>>>> body to be the self) is, as explained by the Adhyasa Bhashya, all
>>>> pramana-prameya vyavahara, both laukika and shaastriya, up to moksha, will
>>>> have to be bracketed as happening in the realm of avidya.   This default,
>>>> bold observation by Shankaracharya is unacceptable to all the others.  The
>>>> status of the body-mind that is wrongly seen as the self, is also in
>>>> danger:  avidya kalpita.  It falls in the category of anirvachaniya since
>>>> it can't be satyam as it is sublated upon right knowledge and it can't be
>>>> asat like the gagana kusuma since it is experienced.  Such a category is
>>>> anathema to all others.  So, merely holding the idea that the
>>>> body-identification is an error is not enough and one will have to go
>>>> further to accept the consequences too.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>> subbu
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do correct me if any of my above understanding is incorrect. 🙏
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu 14. Oct 2021 at 21:36, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is an updated article on the above topic.  New evidences are
>>>>>> added including a short video clip of the late Pejawar Swamiji on taking
>>>>>> the body as the self is bhrama, mithyaajnana:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://adbhutam.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/dvaita-accepts-body-adhyasa-1.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards
>>>>>> subbu
>>>>>>
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