[Advaita-l] [advaitin] 'Dvaita accepts body-adhyasa'

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Vinodhji
Thank you for your question. I understand Subbuji was highlighting how even
dvaitin expositions don't deny adhyAsa of the body-mind and yet, (as
Advaita points out), they don't see the consequences of
I noticed that Subbuji indicated a brief answer along the idea of pramANas.

In other words, if pramAtRtvaM is accepted as adhyasta and hence not
absolutely real, then all objects (prameyas) including body and mind are
unreal. Samkhyas don't see the implication of adhyAsa for the means of
knowledge by which alone anything can be said to exist. If puruSha is
discriminated from its false identification with prakRti, then subsequently
there is no way ( by pramANas like pratyaxa and anumAna) to assert prakRti
exists.  So sAmkhyas can only rely on Shruti to assert prakRti existence
and its nityatvaM. But that type of understanding of shruti pramANa to
assert prakRti existence is refuted in brahma sUtra by Sri vyAsa/shaMkara
(Ixater na ashabdam - brahma sUtra 1.1.5).

Om
Raghav



On Sat, 16 Oct, 2021, 8:25 am Vinodh via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaskaram Sri Prasadji,
>
> Thank you for your kind explanation. If I understood it correctly, you are
> presenting the Advaitic viewpoint based on Sruthi, which I am able to
> follow.
>
> At the same time, other Astika schools which also accept the authority of
> the Sruti seem to claim something different from Advaita while still
> accepting the superposition of the body-mind on the Self. In this context,
> my question is whether the superposition alone is enough (read as
> 'sufficient condition' in terms of mathematical language) to establish that
> the body-mind is also avidya. This does not seem to be the case because, at
> least in my limited understanding, schools like Sankhya posit a Pradhana
> that is inert and independent of the Purusha and the Purusha experiences
> the Pradhana without clearly seeing the difference between itself and
> Pradhana. The Dvaita school also posits that a Paramatma has created this
> world (including individual body-mind) as well as all the Jivas which
> reside in them, but the Jivas suffer because of the superposition of the
> body-mind on themselves thinking "I am this body" or "This is mine" etc.
>
> This question arises because of the thread's subject being "Dvaita accepts
> body-adhyaasa" and the subsequent claim by Sri Subbuji that this
> superposition alone implies that all vyavahara is in avidya and
> consequently the Dvaitic schools must also accept the Advaitic view only.
> The Adhyasa Bhashya was referenced for supporting this claim. In it, an
> additional assertion (by which I mean a statement without a substantiating
> evidence or argument) appears to be made that the body-mind has avidya for
> a material cause. When this  assertion is taken together with the adhyaasa
> of the body-mind on the self (adhyaasa being an effect of avidya) and the
> fact that such an adhyaasa is necessary for any vyavahara implies that all
> vyavahara happens in avidya. However, it seems that without this assertion
> the same conclusion cannot be made.
>
> Therefore, my question is whether dvaitic schools do not accept the
> assertion that the body-mind has avidya for a material cause and therefore
> whether this is the reason why although they accept the body-mind adhyaasa
> they do not necessarily reach the same conclusion as Advaita. If this is
> the case, then why is it that they are unable to accept that body-mind as
> springing out of avidya? Is it because they posit that a Paramatma is the
> cause for the jagat and that He is not touched by avidya?
>
> In essence, I am trying to understand where and why the Dvaitic schools
> differ in their conclusion from Advaita even though they accept the same
> Sruti and accept several things that are common with Advaita like body-mind
> adhyaasa. Why do they stop short of the final conclusion of Advaita even
> while there are many similarities? What is it they are unable to agree with
> on Advaita and why?
>
> I hope I have been able to explain my question a bit more clearly now. I
> would appreciate any thoughts on the above. 🙏
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:55 PM Prasad <joytruthlove.aum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sri Gurubhyo Namaha
> >
> > I am not a scholar. But I could confess to have listened to a fair bit
> > from various teachers in the Arsha Vidya Parampara and read and tried to
> > understand a few more things based on whatever understanding I gained
> from
> > them.
> >
> > Vinodh ji says/asks -
> >
> > *"Because without this additional assertion that avidya is a material
> > cause for body-mind, it is not entirely clear if it follows just from the
> > body-mind adhyaasa on the self that all vyavahara is in avidya. Any
> > thoughts on this would be highly appreciated. 🙏"*
> >
> > I have a feeling that this assertion should be first refined - as in the
> > statement does not make it clear what the status of the body-mind is.
> > Avidya is a material cause for the body-mind* when they are assumed to be
> > different from oneself*. That is - *"I am the knower, and this is my
> > body-mind which is different from me, and exists independently of my
> > existence"* - such a statement suggests that the person has only gone
> > half-the-distance. The person has found this, say via the Shruti or
> > equivalently by drg-drushya prakriya. However, the Shruti goes a step
> > further and says that this distinction is not real, in the sense that the
> > body-mind does not exist independently of the Self.
> >
> > This assumption of "independent existence of the body-mind" is based on a
> > lack of knowledge of the Self. This independent-existence assumption does
> > not have any pramaana proving it. Hence this is an adhyaasa cause by
> avidya
> > (advaita Atma avidya), which disappears upon the enquiry into the Self
> via
> > the Shruti (that results in the knowledge of the Advaita Atma by
> resolving
> > the existence of the body-mind into its true cause which is the Atman).
> >
> > As long as the true cause is not known, but the body-mind are seen to
> > exist "independently" of oneself, their cause is Self-ignorance. When the
> > body-mind's true cause (the Atman) is known and they are resolved via
> > understanding into this cause, the body-mind cease to have any
> independent
> > existence apart from oneself, hence the words "body-mind" do not point to
> > any second object apart from oneself. This is knowledge because of which
> > the body-mind ceases to exist. Thus Advaita Atma vidya destroys the
> > independent existence of a body-mind and therefore samsara which follows
> > from it.
> >
> > My two paise,
> > - Prasad
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:49 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This translation of the lectures of Sri Mani Dravid Shastri seems
> >> relevant to the question:
> >> https://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/snsastri/adhyasabhashya.pdf
> >>
> >> Quote: "It has been established that there is mutual superimposition
> >> between the self which is pure consciousness, and the not-self
> consisting
> >> of the body, mind and senses. Such a superimposition is essential for a
> >> jiva to become a knower (pramaataa). Only if the jiva becomes a
> pramaataa
> >> he can experience objects through the sense-organs. Only then he
> becomes a
> >> seer, hearer, thinker, etc. Even for the Saastra to be applicable there
> has
> >> to be superimposition. For performing the rituals laid down in the Vedas
> >> for attaining heaven the person should know that there is a self which
> is
> >> different from the gross body and which will continue after death. But
> he
> >> need not know the real nature of the self as described in Vedanta. If he
> >> knows the real nature of the self it will be an obstacle to his
> performing
> >> the rituals laid down in the Vedas because there is nothing to be
> attained
> >> by such a person. Rituals are laid down based on caste such as Brahmana,
> >> etc., ashrama, age, etc. So a person has to identify himself as a
> Brahmana
> >> or a grihasta, etc., to perform rituals. All these relate to the body.
> Such
> >> identification is possible only if there is adhyaasa of the body on the
> >> self."
> >>
> >> In the above, it is stated that the adhyaasa of the body, mind, and
> >> senses on the self is essential for any vyavahara. So far, I assume the
> >> argument is understandable.
> >>
> >> The question that remains from the Dvaita perspective is: why can it not
> >> be that the self as well as the body-mind-senses are both real? And that
> >> there is a self for a Jiva and a different self for a Paramatma, for
> >> example? It could still be that, in this case, the superimposition of
> the
> >> body-mind-senses is a cause of suffering for the Jiva. But this
> >> superimposition does not necessarily imply that the body-mind-senses
> >> themselves are unreal.
> >>
> >> There seems to be a somewhat similar question raised in the above text
> >> (quoted below), but it seems to be answered by an assertion that the
> >> body-mind-senses are not just made of panchabhootas as material cause,
> but
> >> are also made of avidya as a material cause. And therefore, it is not a
> >> matter of thinking one thing for another (misapprehension).
> >>
> >> I suppose this assertion that body-mind-senses have avidya as material
> >> cause is not accepted by the other schools? Because without this
> additional
> >> assertion that avidya is a material cause for body-mind, it is not
> entirely
> >> clear if it follows just from the body-mind adhyaasa on the self that
> all
> >> vyavahara is in avidya. Any thoughts on this would be highly
> appreciated. 🙏
> >>
> >> Quote: "Can the attribution of the qualities of the body, mind and
> senses
> >> to the self be said to be anyathakhyati? Here also the answer is, no.
> The
> >> material cause of the body is not only the five elements but also the
> >> nescience relating to the particular jiva. Since nescience is
> >> anirvachaniyam, its effect, the body, is also the same. In this view
> maya
> >> is the totality and individual nescience is a part of it. The body is
> not
> >> something already existing elsewhere but it has come into existence from
> >> the individual nescience. So anyathakhyati is not applicable."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 4:30 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thank you for the clarification, Sri Subbuji.
> >>>
> >>> Could you please elaborate on (or point to the place in the Adhyasa
> >>> Bhashya where it is shown) how the body-adhyasa (alone) leads to the
> >>> conclusion that all pramana-prameya vyavahara is happening in avidya?
> >>>
> >>> The reason for asking this is that I thought that the Samkhya school
> >>> (and other Dvaitic shools) claims that the body-mind is sat (existent)
> and
> >>> part of Prakriti (insentient) and it is only an error on part of the
> >>> sentient Purusha to not see the difference between itself and the
> >>> insentient? In this case, it seems to me that they argue that while the
> >>> body-adhyasa on the Purusha is an error, this does not necessarily mean
> >>> that body-mind is avidya kalpita.
> >>>
> >>> So I am curious to know how the admission of body-adhyasa (alone)
> >>> necessarily leads to the consequence of all vyavahara being in the
> realm of
> >>> avidya according to the Adhyaasa Bhashya.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 1:27 PM V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:11 PM Vinodh <vinodh.iitm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Namaskaram,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kindly pardon any ignorance on my part, but I thought that
> >>>>> body-adhyasa was always accepted by Dvaita? In other words, I
> assumed that
> >>>>> Dvaitins hold that the Jivaatma which is chaitanya-svaroopa (nature
> of
> >>>>> consciousness or sentient) is falsely imagining itself to be the
> body which
> >>>>> is jada (insentient). This is, in my limited understanding, similar
> >>>>> to the view of the Samkhya philosophy where the (multiple) Purushas
> which
> >>>>> are sentient experience the Prakriti which is insentient (and makes
> up 24
> >>>>> tattvas including the five panchabhootas of which the body is made)
> while
> >>>>> not realizing the difference between Purusha and Prakriti.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is my understanding that the main difference of Advaita to these
> >>>>> philosophies is not the body-adhyasa but rather the
> Jiva-Brahma-aikyam
> >>>>> (one-ness of the Jiva and Brahman).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So this post makes me wonder if there anything new (or surprising)
> >>>>> about Dvaitins accepting body-adhyasa.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That all aastika schools hold the Atma to be distinct from the
> >>>> body-mind complex is well known. The purpose of mentioning this with
> >>>> reference to Dvaita is that the consequence of the error (of taking
> the
> >>>> body to be the self) is, as explained by the Adhyasa Bhashya, all
> >>>> pramana-prameya vyavahara, both laukika and shaastriya, up to moksha,
> will
> >>>> have to be bracketed as happening in the realm of avidya.   This
> default,
> >>>> bold observation by Shankaracharya is unacceptable to all the
> others.  The
> >>>> status of the body-mind that is wrongly seen as the self, is also in
> >>>> danger:  avidya kalpita.  It falls in the category of anirvachaniya
> since
> >>>> it can't be satyam as it is sublated upon right knowledge and it
> can't be
> >>>> asat like the gagana kusuma since it is experienced.  Such a category
> is
> >>>> anathema to all others.  So, merely holding the idea that the
> >>>> body-identification is an error is not enough and one will have to go
> >>>> further to accept the consequences too.
> >>>>
> >>>> regards
> >>>> subbu
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please do correct me if any of my above understanding is incorrect.
> 🙏
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu 14. Oct 2021 at 21:36, V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here is an updated article on the above topic.  New evidences are
> >>>>>> added including a short video clip of the late Pejawar Swamiji on
> taking
> >>>>>> the body as the self is bhrama, mithyaajnana:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> https://adbhutam.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/dvaita-accepts-body-adhyasa-1.pdf
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> regards
> >>>>>> subbu
> >>>>>>
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