[Advaita-l] ​Re: [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste.

There are any number of such references available. However Sri SSS in his
translation of BSB 2-1-14 in kannada, PDF page 770, Book page 731, Foot
Notes 1 and 2, declares words like अविद्याकृत , अविद्यात्मक ,
अविद्याप्रत्युपस्थापित should be understood as being used in the sense of
अविद्याकल्पित. Also terms  अव्यक्त , अव्याकृत, अक्षर are synonymous with
माया  which  has been declared as  अविद्याकल्पित. Meaning thereby that they
are all to be understood as  imagined through avidyA. Hence instead of
getting into prolonged discussions on what is meant by such equations, I
have cited Sri SSS himself admitting to Sri Bhagavatpada considering avidyA
and mAyA as synonymous terms in the Bhashya.

Regards

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:56 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:32 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Bhaskar Ji,
>>
>> I just noticed the following from one of your posts in Advaitin (I am not
>> a
>> member in that group).
>>
>> <<  Kindly let us know whether this scholar have spoken anything about
>> avidyA=mAya when he is citing the meanings and grammatical forms.  If yes,
>> had he quoted any justification for this conclusion?? >>.
>>
>> It may be of interest to note Sri SSS himself has admitted to this
>> equation. Please refer  to **Introduction**  by Sri SSS in his text on
>> KathOpanishad, page vi, in kannada under the title “what is avidyA”, which
>> I have translated to English here
>>
>> Quote  << *Although the AchArya has indeed used at some places the terms
>> avidyA and mAyA as synonymous terms*, since apart from deliberating  that
>> avidyA is mithyAjnAna which is destroyed by vidyA (AdhyAsa BhAshya) and
>> that mayA is the seedform of nAmarUpa imagined through avidyA
>> (avidyAkalpita) (BSB 2-1-14) ;  again further in a sUtra bhAshya initiated
>> for deliberating upon the meaning of the term **avyakta **, two versions
>> are separately presented ;; on the one hand taking the stand that
>> **avyakta
>> is mAyA ** and on the other hand  ** avyakta is avidyA ** (BSB 1-4-3),--
>> it
>> becomes clear that in shAnkara prasthAna avidyA belongs to the realm of
>> knowledge (jnAnakOti) while mAyA belongs to the realm of objects
>> (jnEyakOti). Hence ** avidyA is the seed for samsAra ** needs to be
>>  understood as cause for samsAra while ** avyakta is the seed for jagat **
>> needs to be understood as avyakta being the upAdAna kAraNa >>. Unquote
>> (Emphasis mine).
>>
>
>
> In the bhashya to the very last verse of the 13th Chapter of the BG,
> Shankara says:
>
> भूतप्रकृतिमोक्षं च, भूतानां *प्रकृतिः अविद्यालक्षणा अव्यक्ताख्या**,*
> तस्याः भूतप्रकृतेः मोक्षणम् अभावगमनं च ये विदुः
>
> Here Avidya is stated to be Avyakta.
>
> In the Vivekachudamani we have:
>
> अव्यक्तनाम्नी परमेशशक्तिः
> अनाद्यविद्या त्रिगुणात्मिका परा ।
> कार्यानुमेया सुधियैव माया
> यया जगत्सर्वमिदं प्रसूयते ॥ १0८ ॥
>
> Here Avyakta and avidya are stated to be the same.
>
> regards
> subbu
>
>>
>> Link to above
>>
>> <<
>>
>> http://www.adhyatmaprakasha.org/php/bookreader/templates/book.php?type=kannada&book_id=091&pagenum=0001#page/8/mode/1up
>> >>
>>
>> Sri SSS has preferred to present an interpretational view of the BhAshya
>> (his own interpretation) rather than the direct and explicit view (avidyA
>> and mAyA are synonymous terms) stated in the BhAshya. This is in
>> contravention of the generally accepted rule which calls for accepting the
>> direct statements and interpreting others in line with this. Also such an
>> interpretation leads to the conclusion that the Bhashya is
>> selfcontradictory.
>> Regards
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:32 AM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Bhaskar ji,
>> >
>> > This demand is because SSS prakriya followers deny any Ontological
>> status
>> > to Asat / Anrta / Mithya as defined by Bhashyakara and only talk about
>> an
>> > epistemological error by wrongly interpreting the rope-snake,
>> shell-silver
>> > analogies. If you are not able to teach using the analogies given in
>> Shruti
>> > and Smriti then your prakriya is Shruti / Smriti Virodha.
>> >
>> > Bhasyakara uses rope-snake, shell-silver analogies only to point out the
>> > AvaraNa and vikshepa shakti of ajnAna. This analogy cannot be extended
>> to
>> > say that world will vanish like snake for the jnAni. But that is what
>> SSS
>> > implies by denying jnAni's svAnubhava as a jnAni and making dvaita
>> > perception itself as an error to be removed.
>> >
>> > This is because of a misunderstading of what is sat and asat and the
>> nature
>> > of a tattvadarshi as revealed in the Gita and Upanishads. SSS fails to
>> > understand jnAni is Brahman but Brahman is not a jnAni.
>> >
>> > Bhagavan says in BG2.16
>> >
>> > उभयोरपि दृष्टोऽन्तस्त्वनयोस्तत्त्वदर्शिभिः
>> >
>> > Bhashyakara writes
>> >
>> > एवम् आत्मानात्मनोः सदसतोः उभयोरपि दृष्टः उपलब्धः अन्तो निर्णयः सत् सदेव
>> > असत् असदेवेति, तु अनयोः यथोक्तयोः तत्त्वदर्शिभिः ।
>> >
>> > Atma /sat and anAtma / asat both are seen and they both have been
>> > ascertained as 'sat is sat' and 'asat is asat' by the tattvadarshis /
>> > jnAnis.
>> >
>> > Similarly in BG 4.18
>> >
>> > कर्मण्यकर्म यः पश्येदकर्मणि च कर्म यः ।
>> > स बुद्धिमान्मनुष्येषु स युक्तः कृत्स्नकर्मकृत् ॥
>> >
>> > One who sees akarma in karma and karma in akarma is a buddhimAn
>> >
>> > Bhagavan does not say seeing karma itself is bandha. So perception of
>> > duality is not a problem but satya-anrta-mithunee-karanam is the problem
>> > and viveka buddhi is to see 'sat as sat' and 'asat as asat' and akarta
>> as
>> > sat and karta as asat. This is the traditional teaching and SSS has
>> > completely missed this and made dvaita more real by saying jnAni cannot
>> > perceive duality leading to anirmoksha-prasanga.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately sincere mumukshus are caught in a trap by this prakriya
>> and
>> > are waiting lifelong for dvaita perception  to end.
>> >
>> > With love and prayers,
>> > Jaishankar
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 1:00 PM Bhaskar YR <
>> bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Since Rope-Snake / Shell-Silver is nowhere to be found in the
>> Upanishads
>> > > commented by Shankara, Gita and Brahmasutra and only clay-pot,
>> gold-lump
>> > > and iron-nail cutter is found in the Upanishad, please present your
>> reply
>> > > with these instead of rope-snake analogy. I think then it will be
>> clear
>> > > what Ontology and epistemology are and how they are related to each
>> other
>> > >
>> > > praNAms
>> > > Hare Krishna
>> > >
>> > > Frankly, I am unable to understand this demand.  Why this demand when
>> > > bhAshyakAra himself used these (rajju-sarpa / shukti-rajata) examples
>> in
>> > > his commentaries??  Well, if at all there is drastic difference
>> between
>> > > these two analogies ( i.e. clay-pot & rope-snake) that would be, IMO,
>> > > kArya-kAraNa ananyatvaM in clay-pot analogy and kAraNa-s no relation
>> with
>> > > that of appearing mithyA kArya in rajju-sarpa. But need more
>> elaboration
>> > > from your side for this particular demand and what would be the
>> > > consequences if we use rajju-sarpa in place of clay-pot.  But it is
>> > better
>> > > to keep in mind some of the traditional presenters have argued that
>> both
>> > > analogies are serving the same purpose in Advaita prakriya.
>> > >
>> > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>> > > Bhaskar YR
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Since Rope-Snake / Shell-Silver is nowhere to be found in the
>> Upanishads
>> > > commented by Shankara, Gita and Brahmasutra and only clay-pot,
>> gold-lump
>> > > and iron-nail cutter is found in the Upanishad, please present your
>> reply
>> > > with these instead of rope-snake analogy. I think then it will be
>> clear
>> > > what Ontology and epistemology are and how they are related to each
>> > other.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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