[Advaita-l] looking for a comparative study on these two topics

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste.

The difference between pot-clay and rope-snake illustrations is broughtout
in your note itself.

//  kArya, are mere names, and the upAdAna kAraNam in the effects alone is
satyam  //

//  This is akin to the rope-snake, where the superimposed snake has no
existence separate from the substratum rope  //.

In the first case, kArya, pot, has clay as the upAdAna kAraNam. In the
second case, snake does not have rope as its upAdAna kAraNam. Snake is a
superimposition on the substratum, rope.  The two are entirely different.
The two are not  **akin**.

Reg  //  The word 'bhrAntyA pashyati' applies to all the three things
stated there: clay-pot, shell-silver and Brahman-jivatvam //,

Yes. But the nature of bhrAnti is different in the three cases. This
bhranti  is not removed by bAdha in all cases of bhrAnti. That bAdha is
what is under discussion not bhrAnti per se. In pot-clay illustration,
understanding kArya (pot) to be different from its kAraNa (clay)  is
bhrAnti. But it is admitted that kAraNa (clay) is different from its kArya
(pot). Pot is no doubt same as clay. But clay is not same as pot. Hence
this bhrAnti is not removed by bAdha. Were it to be so, bAdha (negation) of
pot would automatically mean bAdha (negation) of clay as well, because pot
is nondifferent from clay. BhrAnti in this case is to be removed by laya of
kArya (pot)  in  karaNa (clay). That is,  understanding pot to be
nondifferent from clay. That is laya in this instance. It is an
understanding. It does not  deny existence of pot. ** one no longer sees a
pot in clay ** is not exactly correct. We all continue to see pot and make
use of it as well. In fact for uses where clay itself is not useful In its
form say  as a lump of clay.
Regards

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 11:18 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 4:34 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste.
>>
>> Can you please give reference to the quote you have cited
>> //  kArya-kAraNa ananyatva rUpa jnAnena ghaTasya
>> baadhaH //.
>>
>> In my understanding, there is no bAdhA involved in clay-pot illustration .
>>
>
> Namaste
>
> The above is my own statement.  It is based on the many pramana-s, two of
> which I have cited in this post/thread itself:
>
> 1.  यद्रूपेण यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं व्यभिचरति, तदनृतमित्युच्यते । अतो
> विकारोऽनृतम् , ‘ वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्’ (छा. उ.
> ६ । १ । ४)
> <http://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Chandogya?page=6&id=Ch_C06_S01_V04&hl=%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D> एवं
> सदेव सत्यमित्यवधारणात् ।
>
> Here Shankara cites the 'vAchArambhaNa' shruti for anRtam.  In that shruti
> the three analogies of clay-clay products, gold-gold products and iron-iron
> products are stated and the common conclusion: the effects, kArya, are mere
> names, and the upAdAna kAraNam in the effects alone is satyam. So, for
> Shankara the vikara is also mithya and the right view is the kArya's
> non-difference from the kAraNa and hence no separate existence to the
> former. This is akin to the rope-snake, where the superimposed snake has no
> existence separate from the substratum rope.
>
> In the Aparokshanubhuti:
>
> यद्वन्मृदि घटभ्रान्तिं शुक्तौ वा रजतस्थितिम्।
> तद्वद्ब्रह्मणि जीवत्वं भ्रान्त्या पश्यति न स्वतः।।59।। some variant
> reading. not significant.
>
> The point is, the clay-pot analogy is seen as akin to shell-silver
> analogy, for bhrama.
>
> After the illusion is corrected, one no longer sees a pot in clay and
> silver in shell, so too jivatvam is not perceived in Brahman.
>
> In this verse the clay-pot and shell-silver - two analogies are given to
> show that the jivatvam is not real; it is a superimposition on Brahman. The
> word 'bhrAntyA pashyati' applies to all the three things stated there:
> clay-pot, shell-silver and Brahman-jivatvam.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 1:59 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 10:16 AM Krishna Kashyap via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Namaste  everyone:
>>> >
>>> > looking for a comparative study on these two topics
>>> > 1) substance attribute relationship in Advaita and comparison with
>>> other
>>> > vedantic schools
>>> > or in other words "guna-guni bhava" or "dharma-dharmi bhava"
>>> >
>>> > 2) dictionary meaning of sublate is: sublated; sublating
>>> >
>>> > transitive verb <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transitive
>>> >
>>> > 1
>>> > : NEGATE <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negate>, DENY
>>> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deny>
>>> > 2
>>> > : to negate or eliminate (something, such as an element in a dialectic
>>> > process) but preserve as a partial element in a synthesis
>>> > sublation
>>> > ˌsə-ˈblā-shən
>>> > <
>>> >
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sublate?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=s&file=sublat02
>>> > >
>>> >  noun
>>> > what is sublatability?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sublation is 'baadha' in Advaita. A pot can be annihilated in two ways:
>>> 1.
>>> by breaking it: this is nAsha. 2. by knowing that it is no different from
>>> its cause, clay: this is kArya-kAraNa ananyatva rUpa jnAnena ghaTasya
>>> baadhaH.  As per the Chandogya analogy, the clay products are mere names
>>> while clay alone is real in them. In the Aparokshanubhuti we have this
>>> verse:
>>>
>>>   Yadwan mrudi ghatabranthim shukthou va rajatha sthithim, Thadwath
>>> brahmani jeewathwam veekshamano na pasyathi. 59
>>>
>>> यद्वन्मृदि घटभ्रान्तिं शुक्तौ वा रजतस्थितिम्।
>>> तद्वद्ब्रह्मणि जीवत्वं भ्रान्त्या पश्यति न स्वतः।।59।। some variant
>>> reading. not significant.
>>>
>>> The point is, the clay-pot analogy is seen as akin to shell-silver
>>> analogy,
>>> for bhrama.
>>>
>>> After the illusion is corrected, one no longer sees a pot in clay and
>>> silver in shell, so too jivatvam is not perceived in Brahman.
>>>
>>> The idea of sublation is used in Advaita in the sense of bAdha,
>>> correcting
>>> an error.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> subbu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
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>>