[Advaita-l] Gaudapada and Shankara hold the waking objects to be mithya

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Bhaskar ji,

There are so many questions in your mail that it is quite cumbersome to
reply to each one individually. So, I will only respond in a general
manner. I would request that if you have questions after reading this
email, and you would like me to respond, please keep them to one or two
important ones. Please don't mistake me, but I'm responding in the middle
of a lot of pressing tasks and I want to ensure that I am using my time
effectively.

But before that, I will ask you three questions.

Do you agree that the appearance of the world continues for the jnAni? Do
you agree he has a body after jnAna? Do you agree that a jnAni is
completely free of any bandha after jnAna?

To me, the answer is yes to all three questions. I don't know what is/are
your answer(s) but would like to know - how you respond will inform me what
you believe, because without understanding your position, I don't know if
what I am stating is blindingly obvious or really necessary to make myself
clear.

If your answer is yes, to all three questions, what is the cause for the
continued appearance of the world? We have to say this is because he has a
body mind complex until the end of his life. Despite this continued world
appearance, because his avidyA is destroyed, the jnAni is a mukta.

Many AchAryas, including Shankaracharya, attribute many reasons for the
presence of the body and continued world appearance post jnAna - some say
prArabdha, some say avidyA samskAra, some say avidyAlesha, etc.

Now, your question is - what is this avidyAlesha? This also has many
answers given by the AchArya-s. Some say the samskAra itself is
avidyAlesha, some say it is a shakti-visheSha.

I think we can say that prArabdha itself is the avidyAlesha (this is my
view, I don't know if any AchArya holds this view or not) - ie if we define
avidyAlesha as that which remains when avidyA is sublated by samyakjnAna,
as prArabdha remains, it can be avidyAlesha.

We have to admit that prArabdha karma still continues after jnAna, because
the presence of the body even after avidyA's destruction means that the
appearance of the world continues for the jnAni. That being the case what
is so wrong if we say prArabdha itself is the avidyAlesha?  As prArabdha
karma is a product of avidyA, to name it as avidyAlesha is not problematic.
Calling an effect by a name indicative of its cause is not unheard of.

I believe such a postulate has the benefit of lAghavatva, parsimoniousness,
because we don't have to postulate the continuance of prArabdha karma and a
separate avidyAlesha. It also means that there is an elegant answer to
people objecting to the jnAni continuing to have "avidyA". It would be very
hard to dispute that the jnAni has a body or that it continues because of
prArabdha which remains even when avidyA is destroyed.

I would be interested in hearing the specific flaws with such a view.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan








On Tue, 1 Aug 2023, 13:12 Bhaskar YR, <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com> wrote:

> praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
>    - Just a follow up clarification requested in this mail since I think
>    this would help me to understand concepts like mUlAvidyA, avidyAlesha and
>    prArabdha karma.
>
>
> In the case of sopAdhika bhrama, avidyA is destroyed, but the upAdhi
> persists and until then, the appearance of the superimposed persists.
>
> > In sOpAdhika bhrama darshana ( like mirage water or can we include sun
> rise and set also!!??) the appearance of the adhyAropita continue because
> of the upAdhi but not due to avidyA.  So what is the bhrama part here ??
>
> If one thinks the mirage is water that is bhrama. If one knows it is not a
> mirage it is not bhrama. The avidyA that is the cause for the former is
> destroyed with samyakjnAna. The anuvRtti of pratIti is because of anuvRtti
> of the upAdhi and will continue for so long as the upAdhi is there.
>
>
>
> Ø     The anuvrutti of prateeti because of anuvrutti of upAdhi is not
> avidyA nor bhrama because jnAni though seeing water he does not think it is
> ‘water’, so what exactly this cognition of ‘water’ is called when this
> cognition is neither bhrama nor avidyA.  I agree that for him the bhrama
> part is not there even though he is seeing the water, but my question
> pertains to ‘seeing the water’ i.e. anuvrutti of prateeti due to
> continuation of upAdhi.
>
>
>
> whether it is avidyA or darshana because jnAni still having the upAdhi
> saMbandha??
>
>
>
> There is no avidyA for jnAni because of samyakjnAna, but there is the
> continued presence of samskAra rUpa ajnAna (avidyAlesha) which is the cause
> for the continuation of the appearance of the world to him.
>
>
>
>    - In your previous mail to Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji you had said :
>    - //quote// the perception of the superimposed is not because of some
>    remnant of avidyA remaining post sublation, but because of the presence of
>    an externality, an upAdhi, which is the cause for the continue perception
>    of the superimposed - even when ignorance has been sublated.//unquote//
>    - Here you are saying there is no remnant to avidyA (avidyAlesha) but
>    above you are saying there is the continues presence of saMskAra rUpa
>    ajnAna (specifically saying it is avidyAlesha.  Kindly clarify why this
>    contradiction??  Can we say in the jnAni SamyakjnAna and saMskAra rUpa
>    ajnAna go hand in hand ??  And I am not clear about the difference between
>    saMskAra rUpa avidyA lesha which you are accepting and remnant of avidyA
>    which you are denying in post jnana period.
>
>
>
> And can we say upAdhi saMbandha of the jnAni through which he will
> continue to have sOpAdhika bhrama and perceives the ahdhyArOpita vastu sans
> any sort of avidyA??
>
> Yes.
>
>    - And surprisingly you are saying ‘yes’ here to the absence of ‘any
>    sort of avidyA’, please clarify whether saMskArarUpa avidyA (avidyAlesha)
>    which you are accepting  is not within the scope of ‘any sort of avidyA??
>
>
>
>   If yes, there must be some clear difference between avidyA drushti
> (misconception) and sOpAdhika bhrama due to upAdhi sambandha, is it not??
> Or am I missing something??
>
> Yes, the jnAni's anubhava and ajnAni's anubhava of the same world is
> indicative of the difference. The jnAni is untouched by the problems of the
> world, the ajnAni is totally caught up in them.
>
>
>
> Ø     Going by the above example, jnAni though seeing the ‘water’ does
> not go there to quench his thirst as he know there is no water, but ajnAni
> seeing the water go there to drink it.
>
>
> So, the perception of the superimposed is not because of some remnant of
> avidyA remaining post sublation, but because of the presence of an
> externality, an upAdhi, which is the cause for the continue perception of
> the superimposed - even when ignorance has been sublated.
>
> >  So from the above observation,  avidyA lesha in the paramArtha jnAni
> too negated by saying it is because of the PRESENCE of an externality,
> upAdhi.  So what exactly is avidyAlesha if it is NOT what you explained
> above??
>
>
>
> avidyAlesha is that upAdhi which continues in jIvanmukti.
>
>
>
> Ø     How the continuation of upAdhi in Jeevanmukta is avidyAlesha??  Can
> we equate avidyAlesha here with prArabdha karma??  And because all
> sashareeratvaM is due to karma janita phala.  If for the continuation of
> anuvrutti of upAdhi and as a result anuvrutti of prateeti avidyAlesha is
> the kAraNa, what is the role of prArabdha karma here??
>
>
>
>
> >  I could see  subtle difference between Jeevan mukti of the jnAni  and
> videhakaivalya ( Videha mukti) of the jnAni here.  Do you mean here to have
> the clear crystal the upAdhi is the obstacle or perception of red crystal
> is due to presence of upAdhi??
>
> Yes.
>
>
>
> Ø     By saying yes you are also implying there exists avidyAlesh in
> jeevanmukta hence anuvrutti of prateeti and his saMbandha with anuvrutti of
> upAdhi continues so in a sense though he is having the absolute clear
> knowledge about colourless crystal he would continue to ‘see’ red crystal
> and he would have the cognition of clear crystal ONLY after his physical
> death i.e. after complete stoppage of anuvrutti of upAdhi.  So equation of
> jnAni status when he embodied and unembodied will be like this :
>
> Ø    (a) sashareeri jnAni-jnAnimAtra with regard to Atman (clear crystal)
> but he would continue to see conditioned jagat (red crystal)
>
> Ø    (b) Videha mukta-paripUrNa jnAni with regard to Atman as there is no
> obstacle for him like upAdhi so that he would see crystal ‘as it is’.
>
>
>
>    - Am I correct with this conclusion prabhuji??
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
> bhaskar
>