[Advaita-l] Gaudapada and Shankara hold the waking objects to be mithya

[Venkatraghavan S]

But avidyAlesha is not avidyA in the traditional view, hence it can subsist
even when avidyA is sublated.

Regards
Venkatraghavan

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 4:48 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> In continuation. There is no contradiction here. Just as in the case of
> traditional view of avidyAlesha after destruction of avidyA.
>
> Regards
>
>
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> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 4:26 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>
>> Since the subsequent portion mentions
>>
>> // Mithyaa  jnaana …..which are falsified by virtue of jnaana (jnaana
>> baadhita)…..//
>>
>> It would be quite in order to understand avidyA and mithyaa jnaana as
>> meaning the same.
>>
>> You may like to refer to my response to Bhaskar Ji also.
>> Regards
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 3:38 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>
>>> Yes, I meant avidyAlesha. I added the quotes around avidyA because my
>>> understanding was that the opponents to avidyAlesha were conflating
>>> avidyAlesha with avidyA, leading them to object to the jnAni having any
>>> avidyA remaining (in the form of avidyAlesha) post jnAna.
>>>
>>> Thanks for posting the quote of Sri SSS. The first sentence of the quote
>>> says "avidyA is completely negated (bAdhita)  by jnAna" but later he says
>>> "There is no defect in admitting the subsistence of mithyajnAna  etc for
>>> some time".
>>>
>>> The only way I can reconcile the apparent contradiction between the two
>>> is if the Swamiji differentiated avidyA from mithyAjnAna. So what according
>>> to him is mithyAjnAna?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2 Aug 2023, 14:21 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>
>>>> Reg  //  It also means that there is an elegant answer to
>>>> people objecting to the jnAni continuing to have "avidyA" //,
>>>>
>>>> I presume you mean *avidyAlesha* by this. Curiously the strongest
>>>> opponent, Sri SSS, himself admits of *avidyAlesha* for the jnAni for some
>>>> time after jnAna. Only he (Sri SSS) means  *mithyAjnAnalesha*,  mithyAjnAna
>>>>  understood as  abhAvarUpa avidyA (absence of knowledge). The irony of the
>>>> whole situation did not strike me till now though I came across this
>>>> position of Sri SSS some time back . I am quoting below from his text, in
>>>> kannada, ShAnkara  VedAnta  Sara,  section 212, pages 279/280 (Translaion
>>>> from kannada to English mine)
>>>>
>>>> //  Here the correct Sidhanta is – *avidyA is completely negated
>>>> (bAdhita)  by jnAna, meaning thereby it leads to the conviction that it
>>>> really does not exist at all ; just this and not that jnAna destroys avidyA
>>>> in the same way as an axe cutting a tree or fire burning wood*. Hence
>>>> it is but natural that even after negation, avidyA/kAma/karma as also their
>>>> Ashraya namely the sharIra, which is caused by prarabdhakarma,  continue to
>>>> function as usual;  just like the spinning  wheel once set in motion  by
>>>> the potter continues to rotate till it loses its momentum.  There is no
>>>> defect in admitting the subsistence of mithyajnAna  etc for some time even
>>>> after negation just as in the case of  the second moon/nachre-silver
>>>> delusion/दिङ्ग्मोह(delusion concerning directions) etc. There is no
>>>> harm caused to the कृतकृत्यता of a jnAni by the continuance of such
>>>> negated entities (बाधितअनुवृत्ति) //.
>>>>
>>>> The text by Sri SSS has also been translated to English along with
>>>> commentary by DB Gangoli,  The Essential Adi Shankara.  See Section 212,
>>>> pages 209/210.
>>>>
>>>> Response of Sri SSS to some of your queries in your post are also
>>>> covered in this section. They practically correspond, in my understanding,
>>>> to the *traditional* views as well.
>>>>
>>>> I thought it might be of interest.
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 9:27 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are so many questions in your mail that it is quite cumbersome to
>>>>> reply to each one individually. So, I will only respond in a general
>>>>> manner. I would request that if you have questions after reading this
>>>>> email, and you would like me to respond, please keep them to one or two
>>>>> important ones. Please don't mistake me, but I'm responding in the
>>>>> middle
>>>>> of a lot of pressing tasks and I want to ensure that I am using my time
>>>>> effectively.
>>>>>
>>>>> But before that, I will ask you three questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you agree that the appearance of the world continues for the jnAni?
>>>>> Do
>>>>> you agree he has a body after jnAna? Do you agree that a jnAni is
>>>>> completely free of any bandha after jnAna?
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, the answer is yes to all three questions. I don't know what
>>>>> is/are
>>>>> your answer(s) but would like to know - how you respond will inform me
>>>>> what
>>>>> you believe, because without understanding your position, I don't know
>>>>> if
>>>>> what I am stating is blindingly obvious or really necessary to make
>>>>> myself
>>>>> clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your answer is yes, to all three questions, what is the cause for
>>>>> the
>>>>> continued appearance of the world? We have to say this is because he
>>>>> has a
>>>>> body mind complex until the end of his life. Despite this continued
>>>>> world
>>>>> appearance, because his avidyA is destroyed, the jnAni is a mukta.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many AchAryas, including Shankaracharya, attribute many reasons for the
>>>>> presence of the body and continued world appearance post jnAna - some
>>>>> say
>>>>> prArabdha, some say avidyA samskAra, some say avidyAlesha, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, your question is - what is this avidyAlesha? This also has many
>>>>> answers given by the AchArya-s. Some say the samskAra itself is
>>>>> avidyAlesha, some say it is a shakti-visheSha.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we can say that prArabdha itself is the avidyAlesha (this is my
>>>>> view, I don't know if any AchArya holds this view or not) - ie if we
>>>>> define
>>>>> avidyAlesha as that which remains when avidyA is sublated by
>>>>> samyakjnAna,
>>>>> as prArabdha remains, it can be avidyAlesha.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have to admit that prArabdha karma still continues after jnAna,
>>>>> because
>>>>> the presence of the body even after avidyA's destruction means that the
>>>>> appearance of the world continues for the jnAni. That being the case
>>>>> what
>>>>> is so wrong if we say prArabdha itself is the avidyAlesha?  As
>>>>> prArabdha
>>>>> karma is a product of avidyA, to name it as avidyAlesha is not
>>>>> problematic.
>>>>> Calling an effect by a name indicative of its cause is not unheard of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe such a postulate has the benefit of lAghavatva,
>>>>> parsimoniousness,
>>>>> because we don't have to postulate the continuance of prArabdha karma
>>>>> and a
>>>>> separate avidyAlesha. It also means that there is an elegant answer to
>>>>> people objecting to the jnAni continuing to have "avidyA". It would be
>>>>> very
>>>>> hard to dispute that the jnAni has a body or that it continues because
>>>>> of
>>>>> prArabdha which remains even when avidyA is destroyed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be interested in hearing the specific flaws with such a view.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>