[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Shri Chandramouli ji,

I believe your question / comment is one of semantics & standpoint. I do
not see a contradiction. Kindly requesting you to please share what you
mean by 'imagined' versus 'created' versus 'experienced as existing'. My
intent is shared below.

The snake is said to be imagined (as opposed to being pratyaksha or
directly perceived) because this adhyasa is of the nature of remembrance
(recollection) of an earlier experience in a different locus. In Vedanta
Paribhasha, recollection is not accepted as pratyaksha pramana. Of course,
it is accepted that the snake is 'experienced as existing'. But this
experience (prama) is not arising from a valid pratyaksha pramana. Being
'imagined' and 'experiencing as existing' are not opposites or mutually
exclusive. The 'imagination' is vyavaharika reality and, as you said,
'experience as existing' is pratibhasika reality. As the pratibhasika
reality is sublated by the vyavaharika knowledge, the recollection of
earlier experience of the snake is understood to be an imagination. It is
an imagination, again, since the snake does not actually exist in the rope
but only appeared to exist as such.

My understanding of 'creation' (manifestation) is that once created
(manifested), the object is valid as a pratyaksha object. If the object is
not pratyaksha post-creation, then it is a mere imagination in the
vyavaharika sense.

Moving on to BUBV-1-4-371, ajnana is the upadana karanam of
"dvaitendrajala". Particularly, "indrajala" means illusion / art of magic,
sorcery, jugglery, delusion etc. Ignorance is the material cause of
illusion. In that way, it can be argued that illusion is 'created' by
ignorance. Applying this to our rope-snake example, it can be argued that
the snake is 'created' by the ignorance of rope. But this 'creation' does
not have the same ontological reality as of the cause because the cause is
ignorance and not knowledge. Thus, it is in a way differentiated from the
other 'creation' with knowledge as the cause (such as a pot from a lump of
clay) and is termed 'imagination', similar to "indrajala".

with humble prostrations,
Vikram


On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 6:28 AM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste.
>
> परिकल्पित or कल्पित etc also have the meaning *created*. Not necessarily
> *imagined*. It is in this sense Bhashya needs to be understood in the
> current context.
>
> Reg Swami Sureswaracharya vArtika cited //  तदुक्तं सुरेश्वराचार्यैः- "
> अक्षमा भवतः केयं साधकत्वप्रकल्पने । किं न पश्यसि संसारं
> तत्रैवाज्ञानकल्पितम् ॥ //,
>
> अज्ञानकल्पितम् should be understood as *created with ajnAna as upAdAna
> kAraNam*. This is clear by the following vArtika verse BUBV 1-4-371
>
> // अस्य द्वैतेन्द्रजालस्य यदुपादानकारणम् ।
>
> अज्ञानं  तदुपाश्रित्य ब्रह्म कारणमुच्यते ॥ //
>
> // asya dvaitendrajAlasya yadupAdAnakAraNam |
>
> aj~nAnaM  tadupAshritya brahma kAraNamuchyate || //
>
> There are any number of verses in the vArtika which reflect the same
> understanding.
>
> Same with Vedanta Paribhasha.
>
> Regards
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 4:47 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 2:31 PM H S Chandramouli <
>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste Vikram Ji,
>>>>
>>> Reg  //  Adhyasa also is mutual, implying some of the
>>> characteristics of the rope are superimposed on the imagined snake as well
>>> //,
>>>
>>> Why is the snake considered to be ** imagined ** in AdhyAsa??. Snake is
>>> ** experienced as existing ** and not as ** imagined **. Even  after
>>> knowing it to be a rope,  recollection is one of experiencing the existence
>>> of the snake, not of ** imagining ** the snake. And in Advaita SiddhAnta
>>> the snake has a certain level of Reality/Existence, namely prAtibhAsika
>>> Reality.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Shankara has held the adhyasta entity to be an imagined/concocted one.
>> That the one under delusion does not know that he has concocted and hence
>> he thinks he is experiencing it.  When the truth is known he will also
>> realize that he had only imagined it.  Of course, the entire samsara
>> anubhava, experience, is also a kalpana, as per siddhanta:
>>
>> छान्दोग्योपनिषद्भाष्यम्षष्ठोऽध्यायःद्वितीयः खण्डःमन्त्र २ - भाष्यम्
>>
>> ………; निरवयवस्य सतः कथं विकारसंस्थानमुपपद्यते ? नैष दोषः,
>> रज्ज्वाद्यवयवेभ्यः सर्पादिसंस्थानवत् बुद्धिपरिकल्पितेभ्यः सदवयवेभ्यः
>> विकारसंस्थानोपपत्तेः । ‘वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्’
>> (छा.………
>>
>> ..
>> <https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Chandogya?page=6&id=Ch_C06_S02_V02_B01&hlBhashya=%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D>
>> छान्दोग्योपनिषद्भाष्यम्षष्ठोऽध्यायःद्वितीयः खण्डःमन्त्र ३ - भाष्यम्
>>
>> ………स्यां भवेयं प्रजायेय प्रकर्षेणोत्पद्येय, यथा मृद्घटाद्याकारेण यथा वा
>> रज्ज्वादि सर्पाद्याकारेण बुद्धिपरिकल्पितेन ।
>>
>> The Vedanta paribhasha too holds this citing Sureshwara and even the
>> Sutra bhashya (Sundara Pandya):
>>
>> वेदान्तपरिभाषाप्रत्यक्षप्रमाणम्
>>
>> ………न घटादिप्रमायमव्याप्तिः । तदुक्तम् - " देहात्मप्रत्ययो यद्वत्
>> प्रमाणत्वेन कल्पितः । लौकिकं तद्वदेवेदं प्रमाणन्त्वाऽऽत्मनिश्चयात् ॥"
>> इति । 'आ आत्मनिश्चयात्'-………
>>
>>
>> वेदान्तपरिभाषाअनुपलब्धिप्रमाणम्
>>
>> ………तदाऽसिद्धिः आरोपितप्रतियोगिकध्वंसस्याधिष्ठाने
>> प्रतीयमानस्याधिष्ठानमात्रत्वात् । तदुक्तम् " अधिष्ठानावशेषो हि नाशः
>> कल्पितवस्तुनः" इति । एवं शुक्तिरूप्यविनाशोऽपीदमवच्छिन्नचैतन्यमेव ।………
>>
>>
>> वेदान्तपरिभाषाअनुपलब्धिप्रमाणम्
>> ………। न च ब्रह्मण्यपि प्रपञ्चभेदाभ्युपगमेऽद्वैतविरोधः,
>> तात्त्विकभेदानभ्युपगमेन वियदादिवदद्वैताव्याघातकत्वात् । प्रपञ्चस्याद्वैते
>> ब्रह्मणि कल्पितत्वाङ्गीकारात् । तदुक्तं सुरेश्वराचार्यैः- " अक्षमा भवतः
>> केयं साधकत्वप्रकल्पने । किं न पश्यसि संसारं तत्रैवाज्ञानकल्पितम् ॥" इति ।
>>
>>
>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>> subbu
>>
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>