[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Does the mukta/jnani see the world?

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Srinath ji.

//In my dream I might have thought it was real, but subsequently it is
getting contradicted all the time.//

In dream-1, you thought that dream-1 was real and the dream-2 you saw
within the dream was unreal and was getting contradicted within the
sustenance of dream-1. Also, dream-1 did not appear to be contradicted so
long as dream-1 lasted. So what? Dream-1 was still a dream and dream-2 was
also a dream. "Not getting contradicted in state-A" does not imply that
state-A is not a dream. As evident from the example of dream-1. Getting
contradicted or not getting contradicted is an irrelevant criterion.
Dream-2 got contradicted during sustenance of dream-1, and it was a dream.
Dream-1 did not get contradicted during sustenance of dream-1, it was still
a dream.

In so called "waking" you "think" that it is not a dream because dream is
contradicted and this waking lasts, but this does not imply that so called
"waking" is not a dream. On the analogy of dream-1.

//So, unless waking is contradicted, you cannot say it is also the same as
the dream.//

Dream-1 was not contradicted till it lasted. Only dream-2 appeared as dream
to you within dream-1. Does that imply that dream-1 was not a dream when it
was on.

Non-contradiction during its sustenance does not imply non-dream-hood as
evident from the example of dream-1.

Therefore, your assertions are contradicted by the dream experience.


//You may invoke shabda pramANa in saying it "would" eventually. But that
is a different story. Remember, your original claim is that you prove
"based on logic" (indifference between waking and dream state). I am
restricting scope of my argument to logic alone as it was your original
premise.//

It is based on logic which is preceded by experience. You experience
dream-2, dream-1 and now so called waking. And you analyse logically and
arrive at their identity. You have no other tools. The so called shAstra
are within the domain of respective dreams. I am not going to use them even
though they clearly hold the identity of waking and dream. They are not
needed in this aspect.

//Nope. in this waking state, shruti's pramANya is due to its
apouruShEyattvaM. Shruti vAkya seen in the dream is your own kalpita (or
you are the kartu) and does not  have independent avichinna parampara.//

These are the  statements you made in dream-2 and dream-1 also. These are
your beliefs just as you believed dream-2-shruti and dream-1-shruti to be
apaurusheya.

Since waking and dream are identical, both Shruti are kalpita.

//If you allude to its abAdhita-artha, as said before such artha pramANya
is due its pramANya established apriory in the waking state and not
independent of it.//

The only abAdhita-artha is myself without the idea of I. To illustrate
this, I said 2+2=4. The reality is, the only abAdhita-artha is myself. Rest
everything is bAdhita. And this myself is not dependent on waking or dream.
On the contrary, dream and waking are dependent thereupon.


//It is not contradicted (yet). The onus is on the one who says it would
contradict. Do not forget you are a vaidIka and hold svataha-pramANya!//

As above. We will come to svatah-prAmANya etc later. First, let us discuss
our experience of waking and dream.


//Again all such claims in the dreams are indeed contradicted. In the case
of waking state, I always wake up to the same bed, same house and to the
same Advaita forum!  This prove waking is non-contradicted,Can you say
the same to dream? Canyou go to the dream to the same continuity of
scene(s) as you dreamt before?//

In dream also, same thing happened. Same bed, same house, same advaita
forum. And the same continued and appeared to continue for ever. No
difference whatsoever sir. Non-contradiction during the sustenance of a
state does not imply non-dream-hood of the state as evident from the
analogy of non-contradiction of dream-1 during its sustenance.


//Hence it is logical to say dream state has sAdriShya with the waking
state. It is wrong to claim both are the same.//

Since there exists no parameter based whereupon the dream can be
established to be distinct from "waking", it is logical to aver their
identity.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023, 07:36 Srinath Vedagarbha, <svedagarbha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Sri.Sudhansu ji,
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 11:02 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> How do you know that the state which you refer to as waking is not a
>> dream? You state that waking is superior to dream. But to determine that
>> what you think as waking is not a dream. In dream also, you thoght that to
>> be waking.
>>
>
> In my dream I might have thought it was real, but subsequently it is
> getting contradicted all the time. So, unless waking is contradicted, you
> cannot say it is also the same as the dream.
>
> You may invoke shabda pramANa in saying it "would" eventually. But that is
> a different story. Remember, your original claim is that you prove "based
> on logic" (indifference between waking and dream state). I am restricting
> scope of my argument to logic alone as it was your original premise.
>
>
>
>>
>> Let us first understand this.
>>
>> 1. In dream also, Shruti were there and relied upon as pramANa.
>>
>
> Nope. in this waking state, shruti's pramANya is due to its
> apouruShEyattvaM. Shruti vAkya seen in the dream is your own kalpita (or
> you are the kartu) and does not  have independent avichinna parampara. If
> you allude to its abAdhita-artha, as said before such artha pramANya is
> due its pramANya established apriory in the waking state and not
> independent of it.
>
>
>>
>> 2. Untenable as the non-dream-hood of waking is still to be proved.
>>
>
> It is not contradicted (yet). The onus is on the one who says it would
> contradict. Do not forget you are a vaidIka and hold svataha-pramANya!
>
>
>
>>
>> 3. Same as 2. Both 2 and 3 were used by you in your dream to aver the
>> non-dream-hood of your dream. Proves nothing.
>>
>> Again all such claims in the dreams are indeed contradicted. In the case
> of waking state, I always wake up to the same bed, same house and to the
> same Advaita forum!  This prove waking is non-contradicted,Can you say
> the same to dream? Canyou go to the dream to the same continuity of
> scene(s) as you dreamt before?
>
> Hence it is logical to say dream state has sAdriShya with the waking
> state. It is wrong to claim both are the same.
>
> Regards,
> SV
>
>