[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Venkataraghavan ji.

Well, the difference between VP and AS is quite evident. Even in case of
negation of illusory silver,  VP holds it to be
vyadhikaraNa-dharma-avachchinna-pratiyogitA-nirUpita-abhAva whereas AS
quite clearly holds the negation to be by swarUpa. So, the
pratiyogitA-avachchhedaka as per VP is laukika-pAramArthikatva whereas as
per AS, it is rajata-tva.

Except for VP, I have never seen anywhere this idea of anyathA-khyAti
within anirvachanIya khyAti.

If we check the explanations of AS (I have Dakshinamurthy Math
explanation), it is the sphatika-lauhitya alone which is stated as mithyA
and not merely the aropa of lauhitya in sphatika. VivaraNa also says the
same. PanchapAdikA also holds the lauhitya to be mithyA (pl check Gauda
Brahmananda on this issue in asatah sAdhakatva abhAve)

Your translation also says the same --

//एवं स्फटिकलौहित्यस्य उपाधिसन्निधानसाधकत्वं च | Similarly, the redness of
the crystal establishes that there is an upAdhi (an adjunct, ie a red
flower) close-by.
नच - लौहित्यं स्फटिके न मिथ्या, किन्तु धर्ममात्रप्रतिबिम्ब इति न
पृथगुदाहरणमिति - वाच्यम् | It cannot be argued that - The redness of a
crystal is not mithyA (ie, is real). It is the reflection of the attribute
of the upAdhi in the crystal. Thus, it is not a different example to the
one of reflection provided earlier.
Because:
धर्मिभूतमुखादिनैरपेक्ष्येण तद्धर्मभूतरूपादिप्रतिबिम्बादर्शनात्, One never
observes the reflection of the attribute (form) alone, without the
substance (the face) that has the form. Thus, the redness of the crystal is
not a case of reflection.
प्रतिबिम्बस्याव्याप्यवृत्तित्वनियमेन लौहित्यस्य स्फटिके
व्याप्यवृत्तिप्रतीत्ययोगाच्च | Moreover, there is a difference in the two
examples. The reflection occupies only a part of the mirror (avyApya
vRtti), whereas the redness observed in the crystal pervades the crystal in
its entirety (vyApya vRtti).
लौहित्ये स्फटिकस्य त्वारोपे तस्य प्रतिबिम्बत्वम्, स्फटिके लौहित्यारोपे तु
तस्य मिथ्यात्वमिति विवेक: | If the crystal had been superimposed on the
redness, then that can be classified as a reflection. Whereas here, the
redness is superimposed on the crystal (it appears to belong to the
crystal). Thus, such a redness must be mithyA. That is the difference.
स्फटिकमणेरिवोपधाननिमित्तो लोहितिमेति लोहितिम्नो मिथ्यात्वं दर्शितं
प्रतिबिम्बसत्यत्ववादिभि: पञ्चपादिकाकृद्भि: | Even the author of the
panchapAdika (padmapAdAchArya) who considers reflections to be real
(because they are identical with the original), shows that the redness of
the crystal is unreal with the words - “Like the crystal whose redness is
on account of the proximate object”.//

It is absolutely unambiguous that it is the redness-of-crystal that is held
by AS and VivaraNa to be mithyA.

In such a situation, one is bound to hold that VP's view is in
contradiction with AS and VivaraNa as on many other occasions.

I am rather surprised to see your defence of VP and desire to find a
mid-way while there is clear difference.

Regards.



On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 19:29 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Sudhanshu ji,
>
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 22:06 Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Isn't this conclusion of VedAnta ParibhAshA in contradiction with
>> siddhAnta
>> as propounded inAdvaita SIddhi wherein the redness-of-crystal is accepted
>> to be mithyA (and not laukika-pAramArtika) following VivaraNa.
>>
>
> I don't think there is a contradiction. The VP is admitting that the red
> crystal is mithyA. All it is saying is that the redness observed is not
> created at the time of perception. If an attribute existing elsewhere is
> falsely assumed to be present somewhere else (atasmin tadbiddhih), then the
> superimposition of the former onto the latter is mithyA.
>
>
>>  लौहित्ये स्फटिकस्य
>> त्वारोपे तस्य प्रतिबिम्बत्वम् , स्फटिके लौहित्यारोपे तु तस्य मिथ्यात्वमिति
>> विवेकः ।
>>
>
> Please note the SiddhikAra is talking of the Aropa (superimposition) of
> redness being mithyA, not whether the redness is created or not - the
> pronoun 'tasya' refers to the Aropa and not sphaTika or the lauhitya. That
> the VP will have no qualms with. I had said this in my previous (last
> year's) discussion with Chandramouli ji.
>
> And regarding this,
>
>>
>> यत्तूक्तं मरीचिकाजले सूर्यप्रतिबिम्बादर्शनात् बिम्बसमानसत्ताकत्वं
>> प्रतिबिम्बोद्ग्राहित्वे प्रयोजकमिति । तन्न; अध्यस्तस्य स्फटिकलौहित्यस्य
>> दर्पणे प्रतिबिम्बदर्शनात् ।
>>
> With respect to the above too while the VP states that where there is
> indriya sannikarSha there is no need to postulate the creation of a
> sphaTikalauhitya, the text also admits the creation of a prAtibhAsika
> sphaTikalauhitya when there is no indriya sannikarSha.  See below from the
> VP
> "
> *नन्वेवं यत्र जपाकुसुमं द्रव्यान्तरव्यवधानादसन्निकृष्टं तत्र
> लौहित्यप्रतीत्या प्रातिभासिकं लौहित्यं स्वीक्रियतामिति चेत्, न,  इष्टत्वात्
> ।*
> *The opponent says - If that is the case, where the hibiscus is not in
> contact with the senses because of obstruction by some other object, there
> the redness that appears must be admitted to be a prAtibhAsika redness. The
> paribhAShAkAra says - that is not a problem, for that is desirable.*"
>
> Now, such a prAtibhAsika redness is also reflected in the mirror in the
> siddhikAra's example and the pUrvapakshi's contention that in all cases,
> the bimba and the darpaNa must be of the same order of reality, still
> stands refuted.
>
> One can see a path to avoid contradiction if one so chooses.
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghvan
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 11:07 AM Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > praNAms
>> > Hare Krishna
>> >
>> > I am really sorry to say some statements ldrafted out of dry tarka (dry
>> > logic) would definitely give lot of pain to parAbhakti sAdhaka-s in
>> Advaita
>> > mArga !! Our prayers/Tapasya/dhyAna/ archana etc. is just to see what is
>> > there in our jnAnAdhyAsa !!??   IshwarAnugraha, his kAruNya, his
>> blessings
>> > etc. just pouring out of that mere jnAnAdhyAsa??  Where we are the
>> > advaitins going??  who follow the great tradition of great Krishna
>> bhakta
>> > Sri Madhusudana Saraswati??  We are forgetting the simple fact that
>> even to
>> > think on these lines (jnAnAdhyAsa, arthAdhyAsa etc. within the scope of
>> > Advaita) we need the Ishwara kAruNya and the jnana we obtain from this
>> > jignAsa is IshwarAnugraha.  Ishwaraanugraha hetukenaiva cha vijnAnena
>> > mOksha siddhiH bhavituM arhati says bhAshyakAra.  IMHO, one simple
>> thing we
>> > should always keep in mind that we the advaitins are not mere dry
>> logicians
>> > (dry philosophers/ tarkikaa-s ) but we are followers of saNta/saints
>> like
>> > shankara bhagavatpAda.
>> >
>> > No intention of hurting anyone's sentiments here, just my observation.
>> >
>> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>> > bhaskar
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes ji
>> > The genuine case of upAsya devatA pratyaxa could possibly be classified
>> as
>> > jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa. And we could argue that such
>> experiences
>> > are not categorizable as purely sAxI pratyaxa like icchA, dveSha etc
>> > because their (ie upAsya devatA's)  locus is perceived as being outside
>> > oneself.
>> >
>> > Again these experiences of genuine devatA pratyaxa do not suffer bAdha
>> > unlike schizophrenia etc which might produce similar experiences which
>> are
>> > recognised as delusional, upon taking appropriate medicines.
>> >
>> > Regarding the sopAdhika bhrama (like a crystal appearing yellow due to
>> the
>> > flower kept next to it), it was pointed out by Venkataraghavan ji (in
>> > agreement with Chandramouliji as per older discussion ) that it's an
>> > example of jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa.
>> >
>> >
>> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > visual or auditory hallucination (of the type that's
>> > > > > unconstitutional
>> > > as
>> > > > in
>> > > > > schizophrenia a la "The Beautiful Mind" for example)?
>> > > > >
>> > > > I can't say for sure because I don't know how auditory hallucination
>> > > > or schizophrenia manifest, but to the extent that there is
>> > > > perception
>> > > involved
>> > > > (even illusory) and the object of perception is not present, one can
>> > > assume
>> > > > the creation of an illusory object.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Venkat ji,
>> > >
>> > > This prompts me to say that the situation where  a sagunopasaka
>> > > getting the upasya devata sakshatkara to be of this nature.  This is
>> > > private to him and also it disappears in time.  Of course there is no
>> > > bAdhaka jnanam here as this is not a case of atasmin tad buddhih. Yet
>> > > the darshanam/perception is had by him for a brief period. It is a
>> > > result of his long practice of the upasana where the samskaras
>> > > generated by the upasana solidify and the devata appears before him.
>> > >
>> > > regards
>> > > subbu
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards,
>> > > > Venkatraghavan
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