[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Of course this is, in essence,  the same as what you have said, in my
understanding.

Regards

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 3:28 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> Would it not be ok to understand forms Iswara takes, Rama/Krishna/Devi
> etc,  is without upAdhIs (other than His own upadhi, mAyA), **  mAyAmaya
> sharIra (मायामयं रूपम् in the vAkya) **, while the other devatas etc are
> Iswara with upAdhIs which are creations of mAyA ?
>
> Regards
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 3:07 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>>
>> The answer to your question can be found in the bhAshya
>> sentence स्यात्परमेश्वरस्यापीच्छावशान्मायामयं रूपं साधकानुग्रहार्थम्.
>>
>> The difference in the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva-s like indrAdi
>> devatA-s and Ishvara avatAra-s is as follows:
>>
>> 1) Cause: the sharIra-s (upAdhi) that jIva-s such as indrAdi-s have is
>> because of karma phala, a result of their karma-s, whereas in the case of
>> Ishvara avatAra-s such as Rama Krishna, Devi etc the form they take is
>> merely a result of Ishvara sankalpa (इच्छावशात् in the bhAShya vAkya), not
>> due to Ishvara's karma phala - Ishvara has no karma, and no karma phala.
>>
>> 2) Nature: the nature of the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva svarUpa-s is
>> sthUla/sUkshma sharIrarUpa whereas in the case of Ishvara avatAra-s it is
>> mAyAmaya sharIra (मायामयं रूपम् in the vAkya). That is why it is possible
>> for Ishvara to take the form of Narasimha simply inside the pillar in an
>> instant - the moment Prahlada says that He is present there.
>>
>> 3) The purpose: the birth of jIva-s as Indra etc is to exhaust the karma
>> phala through experience, whereas the bodies taken by Ishvara avatAra-s is
>> for the purpose of blessing the sAdhaka / loka kalyANa (साधकानुग्रहार्थम्
>> in the vAkya).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 7 Feb 2023, 09:08 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>>>
>>> Hare Krishna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still not clear about categorizing some devata’s upAdhi as jeeva
>>> upAdhi and some main deities upAdhi as Ishwara upAdhi.  My contention is
>>> very simple and clear, as per Advaita Chaitanya is one which is birthless,
>>> deathless but still appears in nAnA rUpa (ajAyamAno bahudA vijAyate), in
>>> that case how can we differentiate some upAdhi sahita chaitanya as devata
>>> gaNa (mere tiny jeeva) and some upAdhi sahita Chaitanya as omni potent,
>>> omni scient sarveshwara like rAma krishna.or vishNu-shiva!!??  If we ignore
>>> the upAdhi what remains is kevala Chaitanya is it not??  And here the main
>>> question is, in shAstra vyavahAra whether the names and forms (upAdhi-s)
>>> prescribed by shAstra-s to do upAsana are different or not??  shAstra and
>>> bhAshya say yes it is different and result of upAsana of these different
>>> devata-s are also different.  Under these circumstances though upAdhi-s in
>>> its kAraNa swarUpa is ekam eva adviteeyam and we doing the upAsana not to
>>> mere names and forms but Chaitanya  the ‘chaitanya’ in its personification
>>> form sOpAdhika rUpa is different only and that difference is equally
>>> applicable to main deities like shivAdi gods and indrAdi devata-s and
>>> sakala sthAvara jaNgama-s.  In this scenario the upAdhi of shiva is
>>> entirely different from vishNu, devi’s upAdhi entirely different from that
>>> of vinAyaka, rudra gaNa, shaNmukha or sUrya.  And this bheda vyavahAra is
>>> obvious in shAstra / vaidika vyavahAra where there is jnAtru, jneya, jnana
>>> triputi hold sway.  And ultimately, from the paramArtha view point what is
>>> there is kevala nirupAdhika Chaitanya and there is no jeeva, nor deva gaNa
>>> and nor Ishwara.  As long as we don’t realize this what is the problem in
>>> accepting bheda among different deva-devata-s and what is the problem in
>>> expecting different fruits (phala) from doing upAsana to different
>>> devata-s??  IMO, doing the upAsana to particular form (ishta devata)
>>> keeping it separate from other forms of deities is not the problem but
>>> problem starts only when we start screaming “my daddy is strongest” and
>>> other should surrender to him or inferior to him.  This hierarchical
>>> treatment is dangerous and leads to fanaticism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Bhaskar YR*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Venkatraghavan S
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 5:47 PM
>>> *To:* advaitin at googlegroups.com
>>> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in
>>> shAstric vyavahAra!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Warning*
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 11:45 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
>>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>>>
>>> Hare Krishna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. Yes there is tAratamyatA among the deva-s - ie agni, indra,
>>> all the way up to hiraNyagarbha - because they are all ultimately jIva-s.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ø     Ultimately jeeva-s!!??  kindly elaborate.  The Rigveda mantra
>>> ekaM sat viprA bahudA vadanti continues to say that : agni, yamaM
>>> mAtarishwAnamAhuH, those who have been addressed as : indra, mitra, varuNa,
>>> agni etc. behind all these there is only one reality.  So, I think your
>>> statement :  *ultimately* jeeva-s needs bit elaboration.
>>>
>>> That these devatA-s are all jIva-s are known from several places from
>>> the shruti and the bhAShya  - hiraNyagarbha is called prathamajah (first
>>> born) in many places. The ekam sat viprA bahudhA vadanti calls these
>>> devatA-s as sat, not in their devatAsvarUpa, but in their kAraNa svarUpa as
>>> Brahman. So SAyaNAchArya in his bhAShya for this rig mantra says : कथं
>>> एकस्य नानात्वमुच्यते - अमुमेवादित्यम् एकं एव वस्तुतः सन्तं विप्राः
>>> मेधाविनः देवतातत्त्वविदः बहुधा वदन्ति | तत्तत्कार्यकारणेन
>>> इन्द्राद्यात्मानं वदन्ति ...सूर्यस्य ब्रह्मणोऽनन्यत्वेन
>>> सार्वात्म्यमुक्तं भवति |
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So indra etc are not Ishvara as indra, but in the kAraNa svarUpa of
>>> indrAdi devatA-s. As indrAdi they are jIva-s only.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  However there is no tAratamyatA among various forms of Ishvara. The
>>> devI being worshipped during navarAtrI is equal to Shiva being worshipped
>>> during shivarAtri who is equal to the Rama being worshipped during
>>> rAmanavamI - both are forms of Ishvara only, but a particular name and form
>>> of the Ishvara is being worshipped there, for ease of worship.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ø     The upasiddhAnta that I can draw from this is ( I may be wrong
>>> here) Ishwara’s form or vyAkruta rUpa is restricted to some specified
>>> celebrities in celestial abode like devi, rAma, Krishna, shiva etc. but not
>>> IndrAdi devata.  If that is the case this difference between indrAdi devata
>>> (ultimately jeeva-s) and other main deva-devata  not something related to
>>> upAdhi but something else!!??  Or am I missing something here??  Please
>>> clarify.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is definitely possible to worship indrAdi devatAs in their kAraNa
>>> svarUpa as Ishvara (where the shruti enjoins so), and in doing that, such
>>> an upAsana is not indra upAsana - it is Ishvara upAsana only. That is why
>>> when we are worshipping devI, rAma, Krishna, shiva, while we are
>>> worshipping the names and forms, we are not worshipping them as names and
>>> forms, but as names and forms *of *Ishvara.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The shAstra is giving us these names and forms as "tools" to be able to
>>> conceptualise that which is beyond conceptualisation. Which form of Ishvara
>>> is to be worshipped and how that form is to be worshipped is not something
>>> that we can take up independently - it has to be something that is enjoined
>>> in the shAstra-s. There will be differences in the manner of worship for
>>> each name and form - because the shAstra-s gives us those differences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So the siddhAnta is *not* that only some forms *are* Ishvara and others
>>> are not (because Ishvara is sarvAtmakah), but rather, *what* the
>>> shAstra says that one should accept as a form of Ishvara fit to be
>>> worshipped, is to be worshipped *as* Ishvara, not *as a name and form*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
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