[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Venkat ji
In the case of Skanda and Ganapati, while they are slightly different from
viShNu (whose birth etc is not mentioned), my understanding is that they
are not exalted jeevas. They too are directly forms of Ishvara unlike
Prajapati, and their worship as Ishvara is not merely an *arthavAda* etc.,
as might be the case with ideas of Ishvaratvam assigned to devatAs like
Indra for the sake of upAsanA.


 Is there any view to the contrary viz., asserting that only Shiva/viShNu
are Ishvara but that such Ishvaratvam cannot be extended to Skanda,
Ganapati, Sri Mahalakshmi, Parvati Devi etc born of Shiva, of the Ocean, of
Himavan etc.? I raise this question with a view to check if the popular
purANik view of them as being forms of Ishvara rather than positions
attained by jnANa-karma-samucchaya, is supported by Vedic/vedAntic pramANas
too or does veda/vedAnta relegate Skanda etc to be more like Indra etc. .
The ganapati-atharvashIrsha comes to mind supporting Ishvaratvam.

Om
Raghav

On Thu, 16 Feb, 2023, 11:02 pm Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Subbuji,
>
> Thanks for sharing jnAnanda bhArati svAmigal's Tamil translation. Sounds
> like he takes the last word in the verse to be devatAm too.
>
> Re "I am not asserting that the Panchadashi wants to take Vishnu as a
> jiva."
>
> I must have misunderstood what you were intending with the Panchadashi
> quote then. If you didn't intend to say that Vishnu / Shiva etc are jIva-s,
> I don't have any difference of views with the rest of your email below.
> There are many ways to reconcile Tyagaraja swami's views without reducing
> Vishnu and Shiva to jIva status.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023, 11:56 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the response Venkat ji.  I give the Jnanananda Bharati
> > Swamigal's Tamil here:
> >
> > விஷ்ணு முதலான மேலான தேஹங்களில் ப்ரவேசித்துக்கொண்டு தேவதையாக ஆனார். மனிதன்
> > முதலிய கீழான தேஹங்களில் இருந்து கொண்டு அந்த தேவதையை பஜிக்கிறார்.
> >
> >
> > Yet another translation here
> >
> https://www.centreforbrahmavidya.org/acharyas/sri-bharathi-theertha-and-sri-vidyaranya/panchadasi-with-translation.html?v=1.2#
> > on p. 606 of the pdf (p.466 of the printed book) gives the meaning as
> most
> > others have given: Vishnu, etc. exalted bodies...
> >
> > I am not asserting that the Panchadashi wants to take Vishnu as a jiva.
> If
> > Brahman is stated to have 'entered' even the body of Vishnu, there is
> some
> > principle other/higher than the Vishnu-body.  The Thyagarajar keertanai I
> > cited earlier says: O Rama, you are in the lowest ant and in Brahma,
> Shiva
> > and Keshava.  (cheemalo brahmalo shivakeshavAdulalo..  Rama nannu
> > brovara..  in Harikambhoji raaga). Showing 'Rama' as distinct from
> Keshava
> > is somewhat amusing. Shankara's VSN Bhashya for the name Keshava says:
> > Keshava is the one *in whose control* are Brahma Vishnu and Shiva. यस्य
> > वशे वर्तन्ते इति केशवः |
> >
> > The purport of the verse I think is: Brahman enlivens all bodies from
> > Vishnu onwards.  And a Pujya-Pujaka bhAva is there.  The pUjya entities
> > include Vishnu, and Indra etc. and the Pujaka are humans. Indra etc. can
> in
> > turn be pujakas of Vishnu, etc.   The Advaitic idea of the worshiped and
> > the worshiper is the same Chaitanyam, in different upadhis, though is
> > brought out.
> >
> > The word 'martya' generally is used to denote human.  I suggested aadi
> > there because the shloka says:  मर्त्याद्यधमदेहेषु स्थितो भजति.. So,
> > martya = human, Adi = other species. In the end if it is martyatAm then
> it
> > would require the inclusion of other species too, in tune with Adi.
> > Translators have given human for martya.
> >
> > regards
> > subbu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
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