[Advaita-l] [advaitin] RE: The fate of mind after realization

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

No sane Hindu, particulary an advaitin  would say that the Upanishadic
statements have to be proved.

The statements like Jaganmitthya need not be proved. These  need to be
accepted, when explained.

My 2 cents,
skb

On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 8:10 PM sunil bhattacharjya <
skbhattacharjya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> No sane Hindu, particulary an advaitin  would say that the Upanishadic
> statements have to be proved, say  the statements like Jaganmitthya need
> not be proved. These  need to be accepted, when explained.
>
> My 2 cents,
> skb
>
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 7:51 PM Ganesh B <ganesh.bala82 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Sunil ji
>>
>> Buddy, you have to substantiate / support your argument, views or
>> observation by quoting the scriptures ~ Pramana.
>>
>> We can't just use some quotes or words just like that and except that in
>> a discussion, the poorvapakshi will just accept whatever one says.
>>
>> If you look at Bhashyas, each and every concepts or statements made by
>> Shankara has been substantiated and supported by Shrutis. Not a single word
>> hasn't been used just from the air.
>>
>> The Purvapakshi will ask you where has it been stated to support your
>> view. The onus lies on you to support yourself with a Pramana.
>>
>> Your argument is like a devout Christian telling that the Advent of
>> Christ has been mentioned in Rig Veda why don't you accept Jesus Christ?
>>
>> If you have read my previous posts, you would have noticed that I
>> actually tried to validate your observation with Pramana. I got what you
>> were trying to convey but you have to back it up with a Pramana. I have not
>> come across the term Mana Shunya.
>>
>> Mano Nasham - yes. Vasana Kshayam - yes. मनोव्यापाराभाव (bh Gita verse 2)
>>
>> But when you use loaded word like Shunyatvam you cant not just use it
>> without backing it up with appropriate pramana.
>>
>> If we don't back our argument or views with appropriate pramana, we will
>> slowly end up diluting the authority of the Shruti. We are no pramana
>> ourselves. What we say doesn't become a authority. We need to back what we
>> quoting the Shrutis or a bonafide-Guru.
>>
>> This is the tradition.
>>
>> I hope this clarifies.
>>
>> Namaskarams.
>>
>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, 05:37 sunil bhattacharjya, <
>> skbhattacharjya at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Ganeshji,
>>>
>>> Thank you for clarifying your fanciful stand, where you yourself
>>> referred to your *own limited knowledge*, as follows:
>>> *It was just to bring to attention that when we use some words such as
>>> मनः शून्य which in my limited knowledge i have not come across in Shankara
>>> Works or much in Adavita school of thought. But perhaps in the neo-advaita
>>> terminologies, many new words do get coined up (perhaps due to the need of
>>> our times as well). But traditionally, there is no Pramanam for this word.
>>> So naturally such terms can tend to be easily misunderstood.*
>>>
>>> I regret to have to state that it appears that you have for unknown
>>> reasons, ignored my earlier clear statements,  where I mentioned  the
>>> principles of Sankhya, on which my statements were  based.  I also
>>> mentioned earlier about how careless people have problems in understanding
>>> the Vedic-Upanishadic  Sanskrit texts with words like   "Jaganmithya" and
>>> "Manah-Shunya".
>>>
>>> My 2 cents
>>> skb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 9:51 PM Ganesh B <ganesh.bala82 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Sunil ji,
>>>>
>>>> It was just to bring to attention that when we use some words such as
>>>> मनः शून्य which in my limited knowledge i have not come across in Shankara
>>>> Works or much in Adavita school of thought. But perhaps in the neo-advaita
>>>> terminologies, many new words do get coined up (perhaps due to the need of
>>>> our times as well). But traditionally, there is no Pramanam for this word.
>>>> So naturally such terms can tend to be easily misunderstood.
>>>>
>>>> So to avoid such needless confusion, it would be best to use the
>>>> terminologies used by our Rishi Parampara.
>>>>
>>>> So even though both sides of the arguments might only be conveying the
>>>> same essence. But unfortunately the words we use end up causing
>>>> difficulties and differences. This is what is a shabdajaalam. Trap by way
>>>> of the words.
>>>>
>>>> In the words of Adi Shankaracharya - असम्प्रदायवित् सर्वशास्त्रविदपि
>>>> मूर्खवदेव उपेक्षणीयः
>>>>
>>>> So it does matter what words we use - best if they are validated by our
>>>> Rishi Parampara.
>>>>
>>>> Humbly thoughts 🙏🏻🙏🏻
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023, 09:52 sunil bhattacharjya, <
>>>> skbhattacharjya at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The discussion was on “Manahshunnya”, where there is no shabda-jaalam.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My2 cents
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2023, at 10:19 PM, Ganesh B <ganesh.bala82 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Namaste all, I would also like to share my thoughts as well -
>>>>>
>>>>> Both views are correct in respective sense. We should be aware that we
>>>>> shouldn't get caught in the net of the words - *Shabda-Jaalam*. As we
>>>>> do know there is always '*Vachyartha*' and '*Lakshyartha*'
>>>>>
>>>>> When we delve in the *Vachartha* there will always be a difference of
>>>>> views. But when we look through the eyes of wisdom, from the eyes of the
>>>>> Sages - *Lakshyartha*, then all differences cease.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramana Maharshi stated -
>>>>>
>>>>> *"The pure mind is itself Brahman; it therefore follows that Brahman
>>>>> is not other than the mind of the sage."*
>>>>>
>>>>> And again he also says in *Upadesa Saram* about *manonasham* -
>>>>>
>>>>> *नष्टमानसोत्कृष्टयोगिनः ।*
>>>>> *कृत्यमस्ति किं स्वस्थितिं यतः ॥ १५॥*
>>>>>
>>>>> What action remains for an exalted Yogi whose mind has been completely
>>>>> destroyed and who is ever established in the Self ?
>>>>>
>>>>> In the *Shrutis* also, on one had say -
>>>>>
>>>>> यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह।
>>>>> words turn back along with the mind, failing to reach brahman.
>>>>>
>>>>> And at the same time it also says -
>>>>>
>>>>> ‘मनसैवानुद्रष्टव्यम्’ (बृ. उ)
>>>>> Through the mind alone It is to be realised.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in essence, we must also understand that what  we call mind/*manas*
>>>>> is nothing but *Chidaabhaasa*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mind derives its power from the Self. And without the Self the mind is
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> When the *Shruti* says ‘मनसैवानुद्रष्टव्यम्’ it means, we see the
>>>>> self through the Chidabasa only. Just like how we infer an eclipse through
>>>>> the light of the very sun itself and not otherwise. Similar the case when
>>>>> we say that clouds cover the sun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, Shrutis say यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यस्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं
>>>>> स्वाम्‌ ॥
>>>>>
>>>>> Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils
>>>>> its own body. (Tr. by Sri. Aurobindo)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati in his *Vivekachoodamani Bhashya* (verse
>>>>> 2) -
>>>>>
>>>>> "ब्रह्मात्मना संस्थितिः मुक्तिः" इत्यत्रसंस्थितिशब्देन
>>>>> वासनाक्षय-मनोनाश-सहकृतस्वनुभवबोधकेन व्यञ्जिताः । तेन
>>>>> सालोक्य-सामीप्य-सारूप्य-सायुज्यानां मुख्यमुक्तित्वाभावश्च सूचितो भवति ।
>>>>>
>>>>> In these above sense we can say either way, that *Jnani* has no mind
>>>>> at all. At the same time he does continue to have mind in the sense that a
>>>>> *Jnani*s mind itself is the Self.
>>>>>
>>>>> Namaskarams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023, 11:09 sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l, <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Sadanandaji - Namaste
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wrote as follows:
>>>>>> The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You also got me wrong. Chandramouliji contested the Manah-shunya
>>>>>> state, by
>>>>>> saying that Instead of the yogi being Manah-Shunya he should have been
>>>>>> Manah-Ananda.  My reply was to say that he was wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the background that the Buddhi has, the Ahamkara develops the
>>>>>> attachment/bonding/desire with the Vyavaharika world, and accordingly
>>>>>> reacts with the vyavaharika world, through the Manah (the
>>>>>> atirindriya),
>>>>>> engaging  the Jnanendriyas and the Karmendriyas (as needed), with the
>>>>>> Vyavaharika world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, when the *Jnana* dawns in the Buddhi through *(i)* the grace of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Guru, *(ii)* and / or through reading  the scriptures like the Vedas
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the Upanishads or the Ramayana and the Mahabharata etc., *(III)* and
>>>>>> followed by the appropriate meditation, the Ahamkara/Ego decreases and
>>>>>> consequently the attachment for the Vyvaharika world also disappears.
>>>>>> Once
>>>>>> the attachment for the Vyavaharika world vanishes there is no role
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> for the Manah and that is the *Manah-Shunya state*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this is clear now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jai Shri Krishna
>>>>>> Sunil KB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 7:01 PM Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
>>>>>> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Sunilji - PraNAms
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Just for your information. Shree Chandramouliji is well-read person
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> > have learned a lot from him through his contributions to the
>>>>>> Advaital list.
>>>>>> > You may not be familiar with his contributions.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The question he posed based on your statement is correct.  I also
>>>>>> agree
>>>>>> > with his assessment.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The question concerns not about the meaning of manah and that it is
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> > of anthahkarana.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> > Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> > like that.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Question - Did Krishna have the mind to teach Arjuna or not?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Our understanding is that Jnaani uses his body, mind and intellect
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> > loka kalyanam - BMI will be there until praarabda gets exhausted.
>>>>>> The Lord
>>>>>> > will maintain the BMI to insure that those who are seeking
>>>>>> knowledge will
>>>>>> > have an opportunity to learn.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > After seeing your mail, thought I should respond.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Hari Om!
>>>>>> > Sadananda
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 11:16:15 PM GMT+5:30, sunil
>>>>>> bhattacharjya
>>>>>> > via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Mr. Chandramouli,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It will nice if you please don't hesitate to tell me a bit about
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> > background, as I am wondering why you are not being able to
>>>>>> understand the
>>>>>> > very simple meaning of the sanskrit word *"Manah.* Understanding
>>>>>> what is
>>>>>> > *Manah* is very crucial for understanding *Sankhya*, which was
>>>>>> taught by
>>>>>> > the *Sage Kapila, an avatara of Lord Vishnu*. The *Manah* is a part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> > our *Subtle
>>>>>> > Body or Sukshma shareera*, and it is the* Mahah*, which makes us
>>>>>> interact
>>>>>> > with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of
>>>>>> *Manah-shunya*
>>>>>> > concept is so very important.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If you can't agree with my view, we can surely  agree to disagree.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Sincerely,
>>>>>> > skb
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:08 AM H S Chandramouli <
>>>>>> > hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > > Namaste Sunil Ji,
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > I  asked for a reference to any text wherein the concept of
>>>>>> > > *Manah-Shunya* is elaborated. Instead of providing this, you are
>>>>>> > directing
>>>>>> > > me to a site which does not show anything except the two words
>>>>>> **मनः** in
>>>>>> > > sanskrit and **mana** in english !!! That too you mention **In
>>>>>> > Sankhya**. I
>>>>>> > > dont know what you mean by this. I thought we are discussing about
>>>>>> > > Advaita Siddhanta.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Anyway I am stopping with this.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Regards
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:13 AM sunil bhattacharjya via
>>>>>> Advaita-l <
>>>>>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >> Chandramouliji,
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> In Sankhya you will find what manah (मनः
>>>>>> > >> <https://translate.glosbe.com/en-sa/mind>) is, and how it is a
>>>>>> part of
>>>>>> > >> the
>>>>>> > >> Sukshma sarrera and how Manah controls the Indriyas.
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> Best
>>>>>> > >> skb
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >>
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>>>>>