[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: Re: Shankara says the objective waking world is a projection of Avidya

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

//The statement by Shankara that the waking world is a projection of Avidya
and that projection gives the impression that the projected world, along
with the instruments that perceive it, are diff from the Atman, oneself.
So much Shankara explicitly says. This duality is not there in sushupti.
From this it is clear that the perception of the waking is no different
from the waking creation. //

World being a projection of avidya does not necessarily imply that
projected world and perception are same. In fact, the world being a
projection of avidyA is admitted in both SDV and DSV. However, it is only
DSV which holds creation to be the same as drishTi.

In SDV, there is sequential creation. From avidyA, there is avyakta, then
mahat, then ahamkAra then panchikaraNa etc. While in DSV, there is no such
sequence. It is simultaneous creation.

World being projection of avidyA can thus be understood in two
fundamentally different irreconcilable ways.

My point is: in DSV, where there is simultaneous creation, there is no
past. I see a table now and saw the same table a moment back. I have a
pratyabhijnA that this is same table which I saw a moment back. In SDV, it
is perfectly true. A correct state of affairs. However, in DSV, this
pratyabhijnA is illusion. Just as a dream table a moment back is not same
as dream table at another moment, similarly waking table at time t1 is
different from waking table at time t2.

This leads to another fundamental issue. In DSV, how do we know that there
was a sushupti. All we have is a thought right now which says that I had a
sushupti. Like in dream, I may have a thought that I had a deep sleep. It
does not prove that I had a deep sleep.

Similarly in waking also, my thought right now that I had sushupti does not
prove that I had sushupti. It is part and parcel of a thought right now.

In DSV, thus, there can be no past or future. All we have is a thought
right now and the seer of the thought. Nothing else. No waking, no dream,
no sushupti. Seer and fluctuation in avidyA.

Thus, my point is: can we make a statement like this: avasthA-traya-vichAra
is valid only in SDV and not in DSV.


On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 4:24 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 2:36 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Hari Om V Subramanian ji.
>>
>> //Thus, we have a very explicit statement from Shankara that the waking
>> world is a projection by avidya: avidya pratyupasthaapitam.  This is
>> another way
>> of saying jagat is mithya.  This is just one instance of the drishti
>> srishti prakriyaa endorsed by Shankara in many places. //
>>
>> Will drishTi-srishTi prakriyA have sushupti? drishTi is
>> vritti-vishishTa-chaitanya.
>
>
> Namaste
>
> The statement by Shankara that the waking world is a projection of Avidya
> and that projection gives the impression that the projected world, along
> with the instruments that perceive it, are diff from the Atman, oneself.
> So much Shankara explicitly says. This duality is not there in sushupti.
> From this it is clear that the perception of the waking is no different
> from the waking creation.
>
> The BG 2.16 bhashya statement, again, is on the same lines: objects
> perceived through the senses are non-existent in truth.
>
> All this has the basis in the Adhyasa bhashya: the very perception process
> that involves adhyasa with body, mind and senses, is therefore creation.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
>> This vritti has to be of avidyA as there is no
>> point in accepting an antah-karaNa distinct from avidyA. in
>> drishTi-srishTi, the vritti-vishishTa-chaitanya alone is srishTi. Whether
>> it is waking or dream or sushupti, there is avidyA-vritti which leads to
>> illusion of creation.
>>
>> The avasthA-traya appears to be valid in srishTi-drishTi-vAda only. In
>> DSV,
>> we have only the present moment. That there was a past is a thought part
>> and parcel of the present moment thought.
>>
>> That I had a sushupti is nothing but a thought at the present moment. In
>> drishTi-srishTi-vAda, we cannot accept sushupti as a different avasthA and
>> analyse it.
>>
>> Please correct me if I am wrong.
>>
>> Venkataraghavan ji, Chandramouli ji. Please share your views.
>>
>> Regards.
>> Sudhanshu Shekhar.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 1:02 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > In the Brihadaranya Upanishad bhashya 4.3.23 while explaining the state
>> of
>> > deep sleep where the jiva does not perceive duality, world, in deep
>> sleep,
>> > the mantra says:
>> >
>> > यद्वै तन्न पश्यति पश्यन्वै तन्न पश्यति न हि द्रष्टुर्दृष्टेर्विपरिलोपो
>> > विद्यतेऽविनाशित्वात् । *न तु तद्द्वितीयमस्ति ततोऽन्यद्विभक्तं
>> यत्पश्येत् ॥*
>> > २३ ॥
>> >
>> > He does not see duality. If it were available there, it would have been
>> > perceived.
>> >
>> > Shankara while explaining says:  यद्धि तद्विशेषदर्शनकारणमन्तःकरणम् चक्षू
>> > रूपं च, तत् अविद्यया अन्यत्वेन प्रत्युपस्थापितमासीत् ; तत् एतस्मिन्काले
>> > एकीभूतम्
>> >
>> > That which aids perception of specific objects is the manas, indriya
>> (eye)
>> > and the vishaya (rupam).  All this was projected by avidya as distinct
>> from
>> > the Atman in the waking. Now since all this has become one with the
>> Atman
>> > in deep sleep, they are not perceived.
>> >
>> > Thus, we have a very explicit statement from Shankara that the waking
>> world
>> > is a projection by avidya: avidya pratyupasthaapitam.  This is another
>> way
>> > of saying jagat is mithya.  This is just one instance of the drishti
>> > srishti prakriyaa endorsed by Shankara in many places.  Another example
>> is
>> > the Bh.Gita 2.16 bhashya:
>> >
>> > न हि शीतोष्णादि सकारणं प्रमाणैर्निरूप्यमाणं वस्तुसद्भवति । विकारो हि सः,
>> > विकारश्च व्यभिचरति । यथा घटादिसंस्थानं चक्षुषा निरूप्यमाणं
>> > मृद्व्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत्
>> > , तथा सर्वो विकारः कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसन् ।
>> >
>> > That which is perceived by the sense (organs, mind, etc.) is asat,
>> > non-existent. The forms of pot, etc. that is perceived by the eye is non
>> > existent apart from its cause, clay, and thus asat, non-existent.
>> >
>> > Thus according to Shankara the objective world that is perceived by the
>> > senses (and thus alone known to exist by the pramaatru/jiva) is
>> nonexistent
>> > for the very reason: prateeyamanatvaat.
>> >
>> > We have to recall the adhyasa bhashya:
>> >
>> >  उच्यते — देहेन्द्रियादिषु अहंममाभिमानरहितस्य प्रमातृत्वानुपपत्तौ
>> > प्रमाणप्रवृत्त्यनुपपत्तेः । न हीन्द्रियाण्यनुपादाय प्रत्यक्षादिव्यवहारः
>> > सम्भवति । न चाधिष्ठानमन्तरेण इन्द्रियाणां व्यवहारः सम्भवति । न
>> चानध्यस्ता
>> > त्मभावेन देहेन कश्चिद्व्याप्रियते । न चैतस्मिन् सर्वस्मिन्नसति असङ्गस्या
>> > त्मनः प्रमातृत्वमुपपद्यते । न च प्रमातृत्वमन्तरेण प्रमाणप्रवृत्तिरस्ति ।
>> > तस्मादविद्यावद्विषयाण्येव प्रत्यक्षादीनि प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि चेति ।
>> >
>> > Sense perception happens only because of Atma - manas, sense organs,
>> body
>> > adhyasa. That which takes place due to this fundamental adhyasa is
>> unreal,
>> > Shankara says above. So all pratyakshaadi vyavahara happens in the
>> domain
>> > of avidya/adhyasa only. Hence alone that is not real.
>> >
>> > Shankara's bhashya is replete with the above theme.
>> >
>> > OM
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