[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Fwd: Brahman has no default form; Only contextual form - Varaha Purana

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

To assume that avatAra has a magical body seems needless. In vichara
Sagara, it is mentioned that Ananda Giri in Mandukya tIka, asserts that
avatAra has bhautika sharIra. That indicates that atleast one acharya did
not find any problem with bhautikatvaM for avatAra sharIram.


 But the author Nischala Dasa feels a need for a mAyamaya sharIra i.e., the
upAdAna (material) is mAyA rather than panchabhUtas- the reason is
unconvincing.

Its like saying that

 X (jeeva and jnAnI sharIra) is made of panchabhutas (which are in turn
made anyway from mAyA).

Y is made directly from mAyA and Y can interact with panchabhUtas.

Again it's not clear why the mAyamaya sharIra had to be cremated by Arjuna
etc. It should have vanished in to thin air.

On Tue, 28 Feb, 2023, 11:29 pm V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Venkat ji,
>
> Thanks for sharing the Vichara sagara pages on the topic.  Upon reading
> this, a question arises:
>
> The author has said: the bodies of avatara purushas like Rama and Krishna
> are not bhautika.  They did generate sukha (to the punyavaan jivas) and
> duhkha (to the papavaan jivas).  Yet, the very avatara bodies are
> themselves not a product of punya or otherwise of Rama and Krishna; the
> jivas' punya/papa alone is the cause of the sukha, etc.
>
> My question is:  In the 13th chapter of the BG, kshetram (prakriti) is
> defined as:
>
> महाभूतान्यहङ्कारो बुद्धिरव्यक्तमेव च ।
> इन्द्रियाणि दशैकं च पञ्च चेन्द्रियगोचराः ॥ ५ ॥
> इच्छा द्वेषः सुखं दुःखं सङ्घातश्चेतना धृतिः ।
> एतत्क्षेत्रं समासेन सविकारमुदाहृतम् ॥ ६ ॥
>
> Here kshetram is all that is observed, experienced. This consists of the
> pancha koshas (including the sense/action organs, manas, buddhi, prana,
> sthula shariram, ahankara) and the outside world of shabda, sparsha, etc.
> Also, the reactions that the contact of the sense/action organs with the
> outside world of sound, etc. These reactions are stated to be sukha,
> duhkha, etc. All of this is together called kshetram: prakriti and its
> parinaama-s. Kshetrajna, the pure Consciousness is the 'other', distinct
> from kshetram.
>
> Now, if the avatara bodies of Rama and Krishna generates sukha/duhkha to
> the ones who saw them during those avataras, there was essentially contact
> of the sense..organs of the jivas with those avatara bodies. The gopis had
> the sparsha anubhava. So many in those avataras had sparsha anubhava of the
> avatara bodies. The bodies then will have to come under shabda, sparsha,
> etc. Taking the 13th chapter specification of the kshetram, the avatara
> bodies will have to be admitted to be products of prakriti. Only murta
> dravyam can be vishaya for chakshus, sparsha, etc.
>
> In the case of bhaktas who experience the divine bodies of Rama, etc. long
> after the avataras have ended their earthly role, the manasa pratyaksha
> generates sukha. But even manasa must depend on aindriya anubhava had
> before. In this case, the bhakta has seen/read the puranas account of the
> rupam of the Lord and that input helps the mano vrittis. Bhaktas have even
> visions of the Lord, speak with Him, hug, etc. This is not purely mental;
> they see the divine form in front of them, touch, etc. HH Sri Abhinava
> Vidyatirtha Swamigal's savikalpa samadhi, etc. anubhavas have been
> documented. He leaned forward and touched the feet of Ambal during one such
> vision. All these must happen with some material dravya, even if the vision
> is subjective. Acharyal has said: if the Lord, during such a vision, had
> given a fruit or any other object, that will remain even after the vision
> ceases and shall be a proof of the vision.  Such fruit necessarily is
> bhautika.
>
> In the light of the above, how do we reconcile the Vichara sagara opinion
> with the kshetram definition? I am only seeking to get clarification.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 7:12 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Raghav ji,
>>
>> Please find attached an interesting discussion in the Sanskrit Vichara
>> Sagara on the untenability of avatAra sharIra to be bhautika.
>> As its a file attachment, it will be rejected by the advaita-l server,
>> others can view it by seeing the corresponding message in the advaitin
>> google groups: https://groups.google.com/g/advaitin
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkataraghavan
>>
>>
>>
>>