[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** RE: Re: Re: [advaitin] Re: Fwd: Brahman has no default form; Only contextual form - Varaha Purana

[Kaushik Chevendra]

Namaste sir.

Here is the main issue without going in circles.
The word "aprakrita" is being used because of the bahsyakaras words.
In the 4th chapter bagavan says "those who know the truth about my divine
birth and activities isn't born again".
Explaining the above statement acharya says bagavans activities and his
birth is "divyam, aprakritam aishvaram".
So it's the word used by acharya himself.
Now in what manner is this "aprakritam" to be understood?
This discussion is continued in the gudartha Deepika where MS acharya says
because the body of bagavan cannot be made of sukshma or gross material it
has to be understood as aprakritam.
Further clarifying his stance he says it's not completely free from
prakriti as well. Any form present on earth is a part of prakriti. And
isvara roopam is not free from this issue. Hence he uses the word
"prakritaprakriti". Neither prakrita nor completely aprakrita.
This is because when krishna chose to kill a demon he would increase his
size hugely or shrink suddenly. Further the entire universe was seen in his
shareera in the sabha when duryodhana tried to bind him. These instances
show that his body is not like the others hence it's "peculiar to isvara"
as stated by acharya in gita bhasya.

Chandrashekhara Bharathi acharya states that when we admit a form to God he
has to be dressed in prakriti even if we do so slightly. Hence the true
tatva of isvara or Vasudeva(gita bhasya) is nirguna brahman only. Only
nirguna brahman is free from prakriti and not any form.
In either case keeping in mind the original discussion, these questions
aren't really required for a sadhaka. Wether isvara felt hunger/thirsty etc
is only known to him. Keeping in mind he is sarvashaktha it seems very
improbable.
Further the entire universe is isvara alone. He is present in everything
equally. It's not that he is more present in roopam than in other things.
Hence devatas, munis etc can also be worshipped as isvara and they yield
the same phala of chutta sudhi. As neither the worship of isvara roopam or
devatas etc give direct mukthi without jnana.
But even if it's admitted that the upasana of devatas leads to chitta sudhi
we can't know the power and efficacy of the upasna. As even though they
lead in the same direction the power is unknown because karma phala is
adhristha. And hence the puranas and ithihasa recommend the worship of
isvara roopas(Devi,Vishnu, Shiva etc) more often.
Regarding this chandrashekhara Bharathi said that as gradation exists in
nature the roopas of isvara are the highest manifestations of the absolute.
Note that they aren't absolute.


Namo narayana


On Tue, 21 Mar, 2023, 11:41 am Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji
>
> One more point to consider in favor of a simpler prAkRta explanation, is
> that Sri Ramachandra's exploits are not so impossibly magical as to
> necessitate a magical explanation for his sharIra. In fact Indrajit and
> others seemed to possess even more superhuman powers etc. than Sri Rama,
> despite these others having a bhautika sharIra. So postulating an
> "apraKrta" sharIra seems wholly unnecessary to explain his exploits.
>
> Again, If Buddha is accepted as an avatAra (albeit in a peculiar fashion),
> then the fact of his leaving the body in the usual way as recorded
> historically, goes against postulating magical explanations for Buddha's
> body.
>
> The only possible factor/reason for bringing in new categories and concepts
> like aprAkRta etc., could be as follows.
> 1. "All that is prAkRta is karma janita"
> 2. "Ishvara's divine forms as well as avatAras are not karma janita."
> 3. Ergo Ishvara's forms cannot be prAkRta.
>
> If 1. and 2. are accepted only then we can perhaps reason that some new
> category like aprAkRta has to be brought in to explain the spontaneous
> *origination* of a body for avatAras without a karma record. Once it
> originates, this sharIra interacts just like prAkRta entities. That would
> square with the mention by acharyas of the sharIra being not entirely
> outside of prakRti either.
>
> Is all this mere hair splitting? I would suggest not. Because if care is
> not exercised in introducing such tricky explanations, then
> dvaita-satyatvaM creeps in through the back door.
>
> It is noteworthy that the bhedAbheda-vadins of Bengali Vaishnavism have
> affinity for such aprAkRta logic to justify that Goloka Vrindavana and
> Krishna are eternal, imperishable because the conventional logic such as
> "anything that changes is perishable", "anything with parts will fall
> apart", etc., applies only to prAkrtic entities and do not (as per their
> claim) apply to the aprAkRta forms ( a.k.a transcendental form and pastimes
> of the Lord in his eternal abode.)
>
> That is why, this point is being laboured a little
>
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Mar, 2023, 10:08 am Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > praNAms
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >
> >   *   I am afraid we are giving undue importance to upAdhi-s (prAkrutika
> > or aprAkrutika) in determining the Ishwara tattva in advaita siddhAnta.
> > Anyway here is my take on your observation :
> >
> > Thes shastras are very clear in these instances. They don't say "he died"
> > it's rather "left for his abode".
> >
> >
> > ?     Yes, for that matter if any noble or exalted soul leaves this earth
> > we would address like that only, that does not mean Krishna went to his
> > abode with shareera.  As we know that 'shareera' where 'krishna' was in,
> > needs to meet its natural end hence Krishna showed the foot to hunter to
> > obey the natural law of 'death' (shareera tyAga) because that body was
> > 'born' in prison as an eighth child of Devaki.
> >
> > If shankaracharya acharya clarified that the birth is not literal and not
> > like any other jeevas(who has birth and death) in the same way we have to
> > take the death as not literally if mentioned someone.
> >
> >
> > ?     I don't know how this observation could anyway going to prove that
> > Krishna or rAma have not undergone the natural cycle of birth and death
> > when it is well documented in epics.  At the best we can say it is not
> > prArabdha janita shareera like other mortal jeeva-s, Ishwara himself
> opted
> > to take birth to do dushta shikshaNa, shishta rakshaNa.  But this is not
> > the valid testimony to argue that Krishna's janma itself is not natural
> and
> > Devaki-vasudeva are not the cause of physical birth of Krishna &
> > Dasharatha-kausalya are not parents of rAma and rAma's birth is not the
> > result of putrakAmeshti ritual.  I think we have to accept all these as
> > facts / true events when rAma and krishNa physically blessed this earth
> in
> > different yuga-s.
> >
> >
> > The problem of giving a bhautika shareera to bagavan makes it necessary
> > that he possesses a mind body complex.
> >
> >
> >   *   saguNa brahman is explained as manOmaya, bhArUpa.  Lord's raNa
> > taNtra (meticulous planning of Kurukshetra events to get rid of bheeshma,
> > drONa, karNa, duryOdhana etc.) is quite conspicuous to prove that he was
> > 'thinking' and planning to do dharma saMsthApana.  I hope you would
> > understand the difference between possessing the BMI complex and
> operating
> > / managing the proceedings.  guNa guNeshu vartante.  By the way,  how do
> > you explain the offsprings  of Krishna and rAma?? Any other esoteric
> > explanation other than bhutika or prAkrutika shareera of their wives and
> > aprAkrutika or abhautika or mAyAmaya shareera of rAma & Krishna??  Kindly
> > don't think it is mockery, this is my genuine doubt.
> >
> > No one can say that bagavan only takes forms and has no Manas if it's
> > taken in bhautika sense.
> > If teh chaitanyam in all jeevas is isvara and he enters a body/mind in
> his
> > avataras, what is the difference between a jeeva and isvara Avatara? If
> we
> > say that his Manas is having upadhis of sarvajntva,etc it can't be
> exactly
> > bhautika. Same applies to the body.
> >
> >
> > ?     I think we are mixing the vyAvahArika and pAramArthika drushti
> > here.  From the transcendental view point there is no jeeveshwarabheda
> > whatsoever and seeing the bheda is akshamya.  And from the transactional
> > view point, there is karma janita jeeva and there is Ishwara who has
> taken
> > the 'birth' to bless his devotees and protect the dharma.  Let us not mix
> > it and confuse ourselves.
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > bhaskar
> >
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