[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Does the mukta/jnani see the world?

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Chandramouli ji.

I don't mind even if you hold my understanding as erroneous. If it can be
established to be erroneous, I will be happy to change my understanding.

Being proved erroneous is a matter of joy for me. There is no question of
any hard feeling. I am a student.

Regards.

On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:53 pm H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namste Sudhanshu Ji,
>
> Firstly I would like to clarify that I am not questioning your judgement.
> I have considered this thread as a discussion only. We are having different
> view points and we are just discussing them. It is not as if I am claiming
> my understanding to be the only correct view point. I hope we are in
> agreement on that. If yes, I will proceed further. No hard feelings.
>
> Regards
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 4:37 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>
>> Vivarta-drishTi is classified twofold in TIkA. NAnA-jIva and Eka-jIva.
>> This is what is SDV and DSV. Both hold world to be a vivarta of Brahman.
>>
>> Now this Vivarta-drishTi is vyAmishra-drishTi. It is apavAda to
>> pariNama-drishTi and Aropa to antyA-drishTi.
>>
>> antyA-drishTi is basically apavAda-drishTi which is what ajAtivAda is.
>>
>> "That there are several jIvAs, some are jnAnI, some are mumukshu etc" is
>> classic SDV. "That I am the only jIva" is classic DSV.
>>
>> Now, TIkA says that earlier drishTi is to be submlimated to latter one.
>> So, pariNama-drishTi is to be sublimated in NJV, which is turn to EJV and
>> that in turn to antyA-drishTi i.e. ajAti.
>>
>> Vivarta-drishTi has been held in TIkA to be upayogI for Moksha
>> parampaayA, not sAkshAt. It also says that Vivarta-drishTi maintains
>> prapancha-bhrama and hence incapable of leading to dvaita-upashAnti which
>> is Moksha.
>>
>> So, what exactly is the error in saying that DSV and SDV cannot lead to
>> Moksha.
>>
>> That there is no srishTi is the truth. Whether it is sequential in SDV or
>> simultaneous in DSV are both adhyAropa and cannot lead one to Moksha.
>>
>> No srishTi alone is truth. SDV has to give way to DSV and DSV to ajAti.
>> What is the error here ?
>>
>> On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:25 pm H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>
>>> My concern was on the following two points already covered in my earlier
>>> posts and I am copying from the same
>>>
>>> //  This implies that as per Sri MS,  all the prakriyAs lead to the
>>> same Goal. There is no difference in the status of the sAdhaka who reaches
>>> the Goal through whichever prakriyA. Your contention appears to imply that
>>> the status is different depending upon whether SDV or DSV or AjAtivAda is
>>> followed by the sAdhaka //
>>>
>>> And
>>>
>>> //  My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to Moksha.
>>> For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the prapancha-bhramatva
>>> //.
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> <#m_-8269710955766200300_m_-4286548754512147803_m_769430256870728693_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 4:10 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>>>
>>>> So what exactly is the error which you find in my statements so far
>>>> which are not in accordance with TIkA.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:02 pm H S Chandramouli, <
>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> The tIkA clarifies the meaning of the word पदार्थधिया (padArthadhiyA)
>>>>> appearing in the verse 84 as **  पदार्थधिया शुद्धतत्वंपदार्थनिश्चयेन
>>>>> **  (padArthadhiyA shuddhatatvaMpadArthanishchayena ). This is exactly what
>>>>> is stated in the translation I had posted for verse 2-84 in my earlier post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>> <#m_-8269710955766200300_m_-4286548754512147803_m_769430256870728693_m_-3769580315760218069_m_-8823196556667661422_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 3:39 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the link. Since the title said Part 1, I did not check
>>>>>> further earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tIkA on 2-84 confirms my earlier stated understanding. तत्त्वमसि
>>>>>> (tatvamasi) means परिपूर्णदृष्टिं
>>>>>> निष्प्रपञ्चप्रत्यग्ब्रह्माभेददृष्टिम् (paripUrNadRRiShTiM
>>>>>> niShprapa~nchapratyagbrahmAbhedadRRiShTim) stated in tIkA on verse 84.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pl check the TIkA.
>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/WRJC_sankshepa-sharirak-chapter-1-with-explanation-by-madhusudan-sarasvati-1887-kashika-press-kashi/page/n613/mode/2up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 2:43 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reg  // The TIkA by MS on sankshepa shArIraka 2.82 to 2.85 may be
>>>>>>>> perused. Here, the text classifies three drishTi, pariNAma-drishTi,
>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi and antyA-drishTi. It says that one attains Moksha through
>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi by sequentially sublimating the earlier drishTi //,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was not able to get at the tIkA of Sri MS on SAMKSEPASARIRAKA.
>>>>>>>> However I could get to download the text SAMKSEPASARIRAKA itself with
>>>>>>>> translation by Prof Veezhinathan at the following link
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>> https://ia600906.us.archive.org/13/items/SankshepaSarirakaOfSarvajnatmaVeezhinathanN/Sankshepa%20Sariraka%20of%20Sarvajnatma%20Veezhinathan%20N_text.pdf
>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am copying below the translation of verses 2-83 to 2-85.  I have
>>>>>>>> not copied for 2-82 as the page is missing. But it may not affect the
>>>>>>>> conclusion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2-83 // The view that the universe is real is the lowest (preli¬
>>>>>>>> minary); and the view that the universe is not real lies in between (the
>>>>>>>> lowest and the ultimate views'). The knowledge which instructs the universe
>>>>>>>> to be unreal and which anni¬ hilates the illusive universe is ultimate. The
>>>>>>>> blend (of the lowest and the ultimate views) is twofold as the notion of
>>>>>>>> the existence of only one individual soul and the notion of existence of
>>>>>>>> many souls longing for liberation. Here the negation of each preceding view
>>>>>>>> leads to each succeeding view //
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2-84  // The aspirant sets aside the notion of transformation and
>>>>>>>> then cultivates the notion of transfiguration. Dis¬ regarding even that by
>>>>>>>> the knowledge of the (secondary) senses of the terms (tat and tvam in the
>>>>>>>> sentence tat tvam asi) he attains the knowledge of the oneness of the self
>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2-85  //  The aspirant who longs for liberation and who is
>>>>>>>> intended to be conveyed by the word atha1 pursues the variety of notions in
>>>>>>>> due sequence as mentioned above. Then, being freed from the knowledge of
>>>>>>>> all duality, he remains in his own supreme nature //.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is clear from the above, at least to me, that there appears to
>>>>>>>> be a misunderstanding of the terms pariNAma-drishTi, vivarta-drishTi and
>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi cited by you from the tIkA. In my understanding,
>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi refers to तत् (tat) only, and antyA-drishTi refers
>>>>>>>> to तत्त्वमसि (tatvamasi). You may like to recheck the tIkA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With this understanding, there is no difference between the tIkA
>>>>>>>> and SDV/DSV as far as attaining Moksha is concerned. Your following
>>>>>>>> statement may need review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  //  My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to
>>>>>>>> Moksha. For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the
>>>>>>>> prapancha-bhramatva // .
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:03 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The TIkA by MS on sankshepa shArIraka 2.82 to 2.85 may be perused.
>>>>>>>>> Here, the text classifies three drishTi, pariNAma-drishTi, vivarta-drishTi
>>>>>>>>> and antyA-drishTi. It says that one attains Moksha through antyA-drishTi by
>>>>>>>>> sequentially sublimating the earlier drishTi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MS bifurcates vivarta-drishTi in two parts, nAnA-jIva and one-jIva
>>>>>>>>> which is what SDV and DSV are respectively. He categorically states that
>>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi is incapable of leading one to Moksha. I quote from 2.82 -
>>>>>>>>> तत्त्वक्षति: प्रपञ्चसत्यत्वक्षतिकरी या विवर्तदृष्टि: सा मध्यमा,
>>>>>>>>> ब्रह्मविचाराद्यधीन विवर्तदृष्टेः विवेकादिमत् पुरुषाश्रायत्वात् परम्परया
>>>>>>>>> मोक्षोपयोगित्वात् आत्मविषयत्वात् च सा पूर्वदृष्ट्यपेक्षया उत्तमा, तावत्या
>>>>>>>>> #द्वैतोपशान्त्यसम्भवाद्# द्वैतोपशान्त्यपेक्षया जघन्या इति मध्यमा इति
>>>>>>>>> अर्थः।.....विवर्तदृष्टेरपि जीवैकत्व नानात्व विषयतया द्वैविध्यम् आह ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> //This implies that as per Sri MS,  all the prakriyAs lead to the
>>>>>>>>> same Goal. There is no difference in the status of the sAdhaka who reaches
>>>>>>>>> the Goal through whichever prakriyA. Your contention appears to imply that
>>>>>>>>> the status is different depending upon whether SDV or DSV or AjAtivAda is
>>>>>>>>> followed by the sAdhaka.//
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whether it is pariNAma-vAda or vivarta-vAda (which includes SDV
>>>>>>>>> and DSV), they are useful in so far as they sequentially take one to
>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi is apavAda-drishTi. However, to reach there, one has
>>>>>>>>> to necessarily sequentially pass through SDV and DSV. Since, DSV is just a
>>>>>>>>> step short to antyA-drishTi, it is the most superior. In antyA-drishTi,
>>>>>>>>> there is apavAda, basically ajAtivAda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to Moksha.
>>>>>>>>> For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the
>>>>>>>>> prapancha-bhramatva.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is only the antyA-drishTi, the ajAtivAda which is the truth. I
>>>>>>>>> would request to kindly peruse 2.82 to 2.85 TIkA. I cannot find any soft
>>>>>>>>> copy. I have the Hindi translation and reproducing the Sanskrit here will
>>>>>>>>> take time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <#m_-8269710955766200300_m_-4286548754512147803_m_769430256870728693_m_-3769580315760218069_m_-8823196556667661422_m_719371146492090414_m_-243644161840440176_m_5383873974098610935_m_-1587743524056879316_m_-3708647878556661999_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
>>>>>>> Pune
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>