[Advaita-l] (no subject)

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Chandramouli ji

Thank you for presenting a consolidated summary of your earlier posts on
the mRdghata dRShTAnta.

You said that Shri LalitaalaalitaH presented an entirely different
perspective.

I hope to slowly read his Sanskrit post and hesitate to trouble you with
asking for all the detailed explanations of the differences between his
Sanskrit post and your English post. So I thought of taking just one
passage as illustrative -

Here Swamiji mentioned tAdAtmya sambandha and later goes on to mention the
anirvacanIyatvaM of kAryakAraNa sambandha.

कार्य्यं न सर्व्वथा कारणाभिन्नं ; तथात्वे मृदैव जलाहरणादिव्यवहारापत्तेः ।
नापि सर्व्वथा तद्भिन्नं ; तद्विनापि सत्त्वापत्तेः ।
अत एव कार्य्यं कारणाद्भिन्नाभिन्नमेव । अयमेव सम्बन्धः तादात्म्यम्
इत्युच्यते ।
इति ।

Is this one instance of the different focus or presentation of the
dRShTAnta?

Om
Raghav





On Thu, 12 Oct, 2023, 1:55 pm H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste.
>
> My post just presents my understanding of the issue. As I had mentioned
> therein, I am aware of other views also on the topic. Just to mention a
> few. During earlier discussions on the meaning and scope of the CU
> declaration
>
> //  वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम् //  CU 6-1-4.
>
> //  vAchArambhaNaM vikAro nAmadheyaM mRRittiketyeva satyam  //  CU 6-1-4
>
> Translation  // All transformation has speech as its basis, and it is name
> only. Clay as such is the reality //
>
> Sri Sadananda Ji had a very different view from what I have presented in my
> post.
>
> During a discussion on kArya-kAraNa relationship, *श्रीमल्ललितालालितः**
> (SrimallalitAlAlitah) disagreed with my views and promised to post a
> separate writeup in Sanskrit on the topic. He has posted the same under the
> heading  **मृद्घटादिदृष्टान्तः**  (**mRRidghaTAdidRRiShTAntaH)  which can
> be viewed at the following link*
>
> *//
>
> https://www.lalitaalaalitah.com/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%98%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%83/
> <
> https://www.lalitaalaalitah.com/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%98%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%83/
> >
> //*
>
> *The text is in Sanskrit. From what I could make out, it presents an
> entirely different understanding.*
>
> *So there are so many different understandings of the same topic apArt from
> what Sri Bhaskar Ji has pointed out.*
>
> *Just for information.*
>
> *Regards*
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 5:08 PM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Namaste.
> > There have been a number of threads recently discussing aspects of the
> > above topic. Such discussions have taken place earlier also on several
> > occasions in which I had also participated. In most of those discussions,
> > there was no agreement on several aspects. I am prsenting below my
> > understanding of the topic in a conolidated manner. I have confined
> myself
> > to cite references only from the Bhashya. It may be useful for new
> > participants who may like to join the discussions. I am aware that there
> > may not be agreement on many of the issues.
> > I have split it into two parts in view of size limitation.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > मृद्घट (mRRidghaTa) (Clay-pot) and रज्जुसर्प (rajjusarpa) (Rope-serpent)
> > illustrations in Chandogya  Upanishad.
> >
> > In CU chapter 6-1, Sage Udhalaka asks his son the following question
> >
> >  //  श्वेतकेतो यन्नु सोम्येदं महामना अनूचानमानी स्तब्धोऽस्युत
> > तमादेशमप्राक्ष्यः येनाश्रुतꣳ श्रुतं भवत्यमतं मतमविज्ञातं विज्ञातमिति कथं
> नु
> > भगवः स आदेशो भवतीति ॥ ३ ॥  //  CU 6-1-3.
> >
> > //   shvetaketo yannu somyedaM mahAmanA anUchAnamAnI stabdho.asyuta
> > tamAdeshamaprAkShyaH yenAshrutaꣳ shrutaM bhavatyamataM matamavij~nAtaM
> > vij~nAtamiti kathaM nu bhagavaH sa Adesho bhavatIti || 3 | //  CU 6-1-3
> >
> > Translation  // "Through which the unheard of becomes heard, the
> unthought
> > of becomes the thought of, the unknown becomes the known?". (Svetaketu
> > asked), "O venerable sir, in what way is that instruction imparted?" //.
> >
> > This has practically the same purport as the question raised by one of
> the
> > disciples in Mu Up, but worded differently
> >
> > //  कस्मिन्नु भगवो विज्ञाते सर्वमिदं विज्ञातं भवतीति ॥ ३ ॥ // Mu Up 1-1-3
> >
> > //  kasminnu bhagavo vij~nAte sarvamidaM vij~nAtaM bhavatIti || 3 || //
> Mu
> > Up 1-1-3
> >
> >  Svetaketu did not know the answer, so he reqests his father to clarify.
> In
> > this context Sage Udhalaka presents the  सृष्टि (sRRiShTi,  Creation)
> >  process in a unique way starting all the way from the state of praLaya.
> > Sage Udhalaka addresses Svetaketu in the following manner.
> >
> > //  सदेव सोम्येदमग्र आसीदेकमेवाद्वितीयम् । //  CU 6-2-2
> >
> > //  sadeva somyedamagra AsIdekamevAdvitIyam |  //  CU 6-2-2
> >
> > Translation  // O good looking one, in the beginning all this was
> > Existence, One only, without a second //.
> >
> > //  तदैक्षत बहु स्यां प्रजायेयेति //  CU  6-2-3
> >
> > //  tadaikShata bahu syAM prajAyeyeti  //  CU  6-2-3
> >
> > Translation  // That (Existence) saw, ' I shall become many.  I shall be
> > born'  //.
> >
> > The सत् (sat)  willed to diversify or modify itself into a multitudinous
> > variety leading to सृष्टि (sRRiShTi), Jagat
> > or Creation. The word सत् (sat) here represents the combination of
> Brahman
> >  and avyAkruta. Individually, neither Brahman (Chaitanya SvarUpa) nor
> > avyAkruta (inert or jada) can Create. Brahman  though Chaitanya svarUpa
> is
> > कूटस्थ (kUtastha), changeless and cannot undergo any vikAra or
> > modification. AvyAkruta, though endowed with unthinkable powers to modify
> > itself  in any number of ways  is jada or inert and cannot activate its
> > power on its own. Its association with Brahman (Chaitanya)  however
> enables
> > activation of this power. This association is अनादि (anAdi) beginningless
> > as per Advaita SidhAnta. It is thus this combination which undergoes the
> > required modification.  In what manner does this combination, addressed
> as
> > सत् (sat) here, perform this diversification?  Ch Up elaborates this
> > process with the use of two illustrations ; मृद्घट (mRRidghaTa)  and
> >  रज्जुसर्प (rajjusarpa)  दृष्टांत (dRRiShTAMta).The Clay-pot and
> > Rope-serpent illustrations.
> >
> > Principally it is avyAkruta which undergoes परिणाम (pariNAma),
> > transformation, without changing its svarUpa (nature) resulting in
> Creation
> > or Jagat . This is illustrated by the मृद्घट दृष्टांत (mRRidghaTa
> > dRRiShTAMta), the  Clay-pot illustration. While the association between
> > Brahman (Chaitanya) and avyAkruta is one of विवर्त (vivarta),
> > transfiguration, illustrated by the रज्जुसर्प  दृष्टांत (rajjusarpa
> > dRRiShTAMta), the Rope-serpent illustration.
> >
> > परिणाम (pariNAma), Transforamation, is of  two types as exemplified by
> the
> > मृद्घट दृष्टांत (mRRidghaTa dRRiShTAMta), Clay-pot illustration and
> > दधिक्षीर दृष्टांत (dadhikShIra dRRiShTAMta), milk-curd illustration. In
> the
> > former case, the substance  does not undergo any transformation or change
> >  in its svarUpa (nature) but only certain attributes like form undergo
> > change. While in the latter, there is a transformation or change in the
> > very svarUpa (nature) itself  of the substance.
> >
> >  The मृद्घट दृष्टांत  (mRRidghaTa dRRiShTAMta), Clay-pot illustration, in
> > the current context is explained by the  CU mantra
> >
> > //  वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम् //  CU 6-1-4.
> >
> > //  vAchArambhaNaM vikAro nAmadheyaM mRRittiketyeva satyam  //  CU 6-1-4
> >
> > Translation  // All transformation has speech as its basis, and it is
> name
> > only. Clay as such is the reality //.
> >
> > The pot-clay illustrartion has been utilized in a variety of contexts in
> > advaitic texts. Here, in Ch Up, the context is assumption of  different
> > forms by a subsatnace without changing its svarUpa (nature). The
> different
> > forms (rUpa) are considered as different visheshaNas of the substance.
> Clay
> > is the substance while the form (rUpa) *pot*  is its visheshaNa. The
> object
> > or product, having clay as substance  endowed with this pot form as
> > visheshaNa, acquaires a unique name (nAma)  *Pot*. Clay can have any
> number
> > of forms (rUpa) as visheshaNa, and with each such form (visheshaNa)  the
> > substance clay acquaires a different name (nAma). Since there is no
> change
> > in the svarUpa (nature)  of the substance in any of these objects, they
> can
> > be  addressed by either of the two names, one associated with the
> substance
> > without visheshaNa and the other the substance as associated with its
> > unique visheshaNa.
> >
> > Another illustration  for the same type of pariNAma (transformation)
> cited
> > in CU is  सुवर्णकुण्डल (suvarNakuNDala), gold-ring. Gold is the substance
> > while the form * ring * is its visheshaNa. Gold can take on any number of
> > forms (visheshaNAs), each one of which acquaires a unique नाम (nAma),
> name,
> > without changing its basic svarUpa (nature) of substance gold. The object
> > or product can addressed by either of the two names, one associated with
> > the substance without visheshaNa and the other the substance as
> associated
> > with its unique visheshaNa. Either as simply * gold * or as
> > ring,chain,bracelet etc as the case may be.
> >
> > The other type of  परिणाम (pariNAma), Transforamation, is best
> illustrated
> > by the दधिक्षीर दृष्टांत (dadhikShIra dRRiShTAMta), Milk-curd
> illustration.
> > In this case, the transformation of milk into curd is not only in its रूप
> > (rUpa),form, but is also associated with a change in the very svarUpa
> > (nature) itself of the substance milk  undergoing the transformation.
> >
> > The transformation of avyAkruta  into Creation or Jagat is of the मृद्घट
> > दृष्टांत (mRRidghaTa dRRiShTAMta), Clay-pot illustration, type. Mantra CU
> > 6-2-3  states
> >
> > //  तदैक्षत बहु स्यां प्रजायेयेति.....  //  CU 6-2-3
> >
> > //  tadaikShata bahu syAM prajAyeyeti.....   //  CU 6-2-3
> >
> > Translation  // That (Existence) saw, ' I shall become many.  I shall be
> > born'  //.
> >
> > The Bhashya thereon CUB 6-2-3 states, inter alia, as below
> >
> > //  बहु प्रभूतं स्यां भवेयं प्रजायेय प्रकर्षेणोत्पद्येय, यथा
> > मृद्घटाद्याकारेण........ //  CUB 6-2-3
> >
> > //   bahu prabhUtaM syAM bhaveyaM prajAyeya prakarSheNotpadyeya, yathA
> > mRRidghaTAdyAkAreNa........ //. CUB  6-2-3
> >
> > Translation  //  I shall be born excellently. Like clay taking the shape
> of
> > pots etc ..... //
> >
> > CU mantra  6-3-2 states
> >
> > //  सेयं देवतैक्षत हन्ताहमिमास्तिस्रो देवता अनेन जीवेनात्मनानुप्रविश्य
> > नामरूपे व्याकरवाणीति ॥ तासां त्रिवृतं त्रिवृतमेकैकां करवाणीति सेयं
> > देवतेमास्तिस्रो देवता अनेनैव जीवेनात्मनानुप्रविश्य नामरूपे व्याकरोत् ॥
> //
> >  CU 6-3-2 and 6-3-3.
> >
> > // seyaM devataikShata hantAhamimAstisro devatA anena
> > jIvenAtmanAnupravishya nAmarUpe vyAkaravANIti || tAsAM trivRRitaM
> > trivRRitamekaikAM karavANIti seyaM devatemAstisro devatA anenaiva
> > jIvenAtmanAnupravishya nAmarUpe vyAkarot ||  //  CU 6-3-2 and 6-3-3.
> >
> > Translation  // That Deity which is such saw : Let it be that now, by
> > entering into these three gods, in the form of the soul of each
> individual
> > being, I shall clearly manifest name and form.  With the idea, " I shall
> > make each one of these three-fold and three-fold, that Deity who was such
> > entered into these three gods, as this individual soul, and manifested
> name
> > and form  //.
> >
> > Continued in part 2.
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