[Advaita-l] avidyA and mind in samAdhi

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

 <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> My apologies -
> Yes,  the fact of mUla avidyA continuing in the type of samadhi espoused
> by mahAvAkya independent practices such as that mentioned in the pAtanjala
> yoga sUtras etc., is a given. Same goes for the general idea of samadhi as
> used in the Bhashyas. There is no ambiguity there and it's only dvaita-
> adarshana as you said.  the highest knowledge that a person who gets the
> pAtanjala yoga samAdhi is within the ambit of duality (dvaita) alone.
>
> vedAntic samAdhi is arrived at (usually as a by-product, so to speak,
> because a vedAntin is only interested in GYAnam and not in any specific new
> experience of samAdhi) of mahAvAkya based nididhyAsanam - in such samAdhi
> alone, we have a nuance that we can say that the initially there is only
> avidyA adarshanam but finally there is removal of avidyA altogether.
>
> If there is anything that reads incorrect, kindly point out.
>
> Om
>
> On Mon, 16 Oct, 2023, 3:30 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Raghav ji.
>>
>> //In the case of samadhi which is not connected with or arrived at
>> through vedAnta pramANa vAkyArtha vRttis, that type of samadhi is no doubt
>> within the ambit of dvaita darshanam and so mUla avidyA is certainly not
>> destroyed. //
>>
>> I actually talked about samAdhi where there is dvaita-adarshan.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:01 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
>> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Oct, 2023, 2:25 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar, <
>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Raghav ji.
>>>>
>>>> //During that AvRtti process, prior to the arising of anubhava-GYAnam,
>>>> it stands to reason that the avidyA bIja has not yet been destroyed
>>>> completely, although the akhaNDAkAra vRtti does arise (or at the very least
>>>> a 'conditional' version of it does arise in case we wish to preserve the
>>>> word "akhaNDAkAra vRtti" and define it as the last straw upon whose arising
>>>> the avidyA bIja becomes completely burnt).//
>>>>
>>>> There are several mentions of samAdhi in bhAshya wherein it is used as
>>>> a drishTAnta for dvaita-adarshan. We can even leave akhanDAkAra-vritti for
>>>> the moment and concerntrate on those samAdhi where there is
>>>> dvaita-adarshana. It will be nirvikalpaka samAdhi. My question is about
>>>> that only.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In the case of samadhi which is not connected with or arrived at through
>>> vedAnta pramANa vAkyArtha vRttis, that type of samadhi is no doubt within
>>> the ambit of dvaita darshanam and so mUla avidyA is certainly not
>>> destroyed. So I guess your question in the above para itself has the answer
>>> viz., mUlavidyA co-exist with samadhi when it is unconnected with vedAnta
>>> shravaNam etc. Even when the tattvamasi type of vAkyArtha vRttis arise it's
>>> only the carama vRtti which does not co-exist with mUla avidyA. Till then
>>> the vAkyArtha-janita samAdhi is still only final leg of the GYAna sAdhana,
>>> nididhyAsanam etc., so it can co-exist with mUla avidyA which is only
>>> destroyed by the carama vRttis corresponding to vAkyArtha GYAnam.
>>>
>>>
>>> Om
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is recollection after samAdhi that I was in samAdhi. There is no
>>>> recollection that "I did not know". This implies non-perception of avidyA
>>>> during samAdhi leading to absence of avidyAkArA-avidyA-vritti. Recollection
>>>> has to happen through destruction of vritti resulting into samskAra. So,
>>>> mano-vritti can be accepted.
>>>>
>>>> So, mind and mano-vritti have to be accepted in nirvikalpaka samAdhi.
>>>> avidyA-vritti has been accepted to be absent in samAdhi by MS in
>>>> avidyA-pratIti-vichArah.
>>>>
>>>> Question boils down to present of avidyA in samAdhi.
>>>>
>>>> LeshAvidyA in any case has to be accepted to be present because it
>>>> withstands even akhanDAkArA-vritti.
>>>>
>>>> MUlAvidyA other than leshAvidyA cannot vanish into thin air during
>>>> samAdhi and spring back again.
>>>>
>>>> So, only logical position which appears to me is continuance of
>>>> mUlAvidyA in nirvikalpaka samAdhi till the destruction thereof by
>>>> charama-vritti.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:07 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Subbu ji
>>>>> यस्य तु न एषोऽनुभवो द्रागिव जायते, तं प्रति अनुभवार्थ एव
>>>>> आवृत्त्यभ्युपगमः ।
>>>>> तत्रापि न तत्त्वमसिवाक्यार्थात् प्रच्याव्य आवृत्तौ प्रवर्तयेत् ।  BSB
>>>>> 4.1.2
>>>>> is an excellent reference you gave where the svarUpa of nididhyAsanam
>>>>> is
>>>>> explained by bhAShyakAra.
>>>>>
>>>>> (aspirants for whom such an anubhava has not occurred instantaneously,
>>>>> the
>>>>> need for reiteration is required for generating that anubhava.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding -
>>>>> During that AvRtti process, prior to the arising of anubhava-GYAnam, it
>>>>> stands to reason that the avidyA bIja has not yet been destroyed
>>>>> completely, although the akhaNDAkAra vRtti does arise (or at the very
>>>>> least
>>>>> a 'conditional' version of it does arise in case we wish to preserve
>>>>> the
>>>>> word "akhaNDAkAra vRtti" and define it as the last straw upon whose
>>>>> arising
>>>>> the avidyA bIja becomes completely burnt).
>>>>>
>>>>>   All this is very subtle and nuanced territory and the idea of "न
>>>>> तत्त्वमसिवाक्यार्थात् प्रच्याव्य" (without deviating from the
>>>>> tattvamasi
>>>>> vAkyArtha) is noteworthy as the characteristic of nididhyAsanam (and
>>>>> samAdhi which in vedAnta, denotes uninterrupted continuity in the
>>>>> akhaNDAkAra vRtti born of vAkyArtha alone) as per vedAnta.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Sudhanshu Ji for raising this topic
>>>>>
>>>>> Om
>>>>>
>>>>> Raghav
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Oct, 2023, 12:24 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:33 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>> > sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Namaste V Subramanian ji.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > 1. Is there a difference between kAraNa sharIra and mUlAvidyA?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Namaste.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > They are the same.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > 2. If many sessions of nirvikalpaka samAdhi are needed for
>>>>> destruction of
>>>>> > > mUlAvidyA, let us talk about the initial few sessions. If
>>>>> > > tattva-agrahaNa-rUpA avidyA is not there, then how does it come
>>>>> back
>>>>> > after
>>>>> > > samAdhi? It is the basic seed. It cannot merge into something and
>>>>> come
>>>>> > > back, like mind merges in avidyA in sushupti and comes back during
>>>>> waking
>>>>> > > and dream.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Tattva agrahana rupa avidya is not there since the akhandAkAra
>>>>> vritti is
>>>>> > accepted. This is AtmA/BrahmakAra vritti.In its presence 'I do not
>>>>> know the
>>>>> > Self' kind of ignorance can't coexist. That is the purport of the
>>>>> > Panchadashi verse and the commentary.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > 3. LeshAvidyA remains post jnAna is completely accepted. I was
>>>>> trying to
>>>>> > > understand about other AkArAs of mUlAvidyA. If the causal seed is
>>>>> not
>>>>> > there
>>>>> > > in samAdhi, how will it come back!
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The causal seed is not completely destroyed in the case of the need
>>>>> for
>>>>> > more akhandAkAra vritti sessions. Such a situation is admitted by
>>>>> Shankara
>>>>> > in the BSB 4.1.2:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > यस्य तु न एषोऽनुभवो द्रागिव जायते, तं प्रति अनुभवार्थ एव
>>>>> आवृत्त्यभ्युपगमः ।
>>>>> > तत्रापि न तत्त्वमसिवाक्यार्थात् प्रच्याव्य आवृत्तौ प्रवर्तयेत् ।
>>>>> For such
>>>>> > of those aspirants such an experience has not occurred
>>>>> instantaneously, the
>>>>> > need for reiteration is required for generating that experience...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > regards
>>>>> > subbu
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Regards.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:05 AM V Subrahmanian <
>>>>> > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >> Dear Sudhanshu ji,
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> On this //Actually, it is saying, there is no "appearance" of
>>>>> sushupti
>>>>> > >> (avidyA) in samAdhi and NOT "there is no sushupti (avidyA) in
>>>>> > samAdhi".//
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> We can see that the commentary, following the verses, is
>>>>> delineating on
>>>>> > >> the vyaavrtti - anuvritti logic. It says: तेषु परस्परं
>>>>> > >> व्यावर्त्यमानेष्वपि... this effectively is the 'absence' of the
>>>>> two of
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > >> three bodies in a given state. Therefore in Samadhi the kAraNa
>>>>> shrira,
>>>>> > >> sleep, is not there.  But the Atman is there in all states.  As
>>>>> pointed
>>>>> > out
>>>>> > >> earlier, the tattva agrahana rUpa avidyA is not there in
>>>>> > akhandakaravritti.
>>>>> > >> That one will have to have many more such sessions in order to
>>>>> become a
>>>>> > >> sthita prajna is not denied. That is another matter. By
>>>>> definition the
>>>>> > >> samadhi as spoken of by Swami Vidyaranya in the cited verse is a
>>>>> > situation
>>>>> > >> where that basic avidya is not there.  That the lesha avidya that
>>>>> is
>>>>> > >> required to bring him out of samadhi and continue in vyavahara,
>>>>> till
>>>>> > death,
>>>>> > >> is admitted and you have acknowledged that as well.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> regards
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 3:02 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>> > >> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>> Namaste V Subramanian ji,
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Thanks for the reply.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I went through the Panchadashi shloka and the tIkA thereupon.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> //Here he says 'In Samadhi there is no Sushupti but Atman is
>>>>> present.
>>>>> > >>> This is anvaya. The vyatireka is: when Atman is shining,
>>>>> sushupti is
>>>>> > not
>>>>> > >>> present. //
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Actually, it is saying, there is no "appearance" of sushupti
>>>>> (avidyA)
>>>>> > in
>>>>> > >>> samAdhi and NOT "there is no sushupti (avidyA) in samAdhi".
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> The non-appearance of avidyA in samAdhi is well accepted.
>>>>> However, that
>>>>> > >>> is explained not due to absence of avidyA, but due to absence of
>>>>> > >>> avidyAkArA-avidyA-vritti. In avidyA-pratIti-vichAra of
>>>>> advaita-siddhi,
>>>>> > MS
>>>>> > >>> says:-
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> न चैवं कदाचिदविद्याया अप्रतीत्यापत्तिः; इष्टापत्तेः, समाधौ
>>>>> > तथाभ्युपगमात्
>>>>> > >>> ।
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Is there any clear articulation anywhere that avidyA is not
>>>>> present
>>>>> > >>> during samAdhi. Because if avidyA is not present during samAdhi,
>>>>> then
>>>>> > one
>>>>> > >>> will not be able to wake up from samAdhi.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> //Since it is admitted that the Tattva agrahana rupa avidya is
>>>>> present
>>>>> > >>> in all three states, in Samadhi when Akhandakara vritti is
>>>>> there, that
>>>>> > >>> avidya is not present. The Ramakrishna Teeka for the above verse
>>>>> where
>>>>> > he
>>>>> > >>> says 'ajnana is not there in samadhi', can be seen here:
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> https://archive.org/details/panchadashi-ramkrishna/page/n57/mode/2up//
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Does attaining nirvikalpaka-samAdhi once leads to destruction of
>>>>> > avidyA?
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> //Of course, the mind, which is the instrument for even attaining
>>>>> > >>> Samadhi, has to be admitted to be present. Also, the nascent
>>>>> form of
>>>>> > >>> avidya/mind are admitted to be present even during samadhi,
>>>>> since they
>>>>> > have
>>>>> > >>> not destroyed so that the post-samadhi life of the Jnani
>>>>> requires this
>>>>> > >>> non-binding form (lesha/vasana) of avidya is the one that
>>>>> sustains the
>>>>> > >>> body-mind of the Jnani till the fall of the body.//
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> This is well understood.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > --
>>>>> > > Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
>>>>> > > Pune
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
>>>>> > >
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
>>>> Pune
>>>>
>>>> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
>> Pune
>>
>> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
>>
>