[Advaita-l] Dream is not real, so is the waking - Say the Veda and Vedavyasa

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Chandramouli ji.

If we differentiate deep sleep as seed and waking-dream as its effect, then
there does appear to be a bit of difference. But I agree, as "unreal other"
appears to exist in all three states, they can be classified as dream.

Also since we admit avidyA-vritti in deep sleep, there does not remain any
difference whatsoever between the three.

Both waking and dream have avidyA-vritti. antah-karaNa-vritti is
differentiated from avidyA-vritti, but as vritti both are same.

So, just as in waking and dream, there are vrittis, deep sleep also has
vritti. Just that antah-karaNa-vritti is not there.

Thus, on account of appearance of vritti in all three states, we can say
all these three to be dream.. Can't we?

Also, in DSV model, can we admit sushupti? Memory and pratyabhijnA are
inadmissible there. That I had deep sleep is memory in SDV but drishTi in
DSV.

So, sushupti itself being inadmissible in DSV, the question will be a
non-starter.

Please share your views.

Regards.


On Wed, 13 Sep, 2023, 5:57 pm H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>
> Reg  //  How exactly is deep sleep termed as dream? //,
>
> Waking and Dream states are Unreal (mithyA)(svapna). No elaboration is
> needed.
>
> Deep Sleep state is the seed  for both Waking and Dream states. Since they
> are Unreal (mithyA)((svapna), seed also naturally  is classified as Unreal
> (mithyA )(svapna).
> Regards
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 3:54 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste V Subramanian ji.
>>
>> How exactly is deep sleep termed as dream?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Tue, 12 Sept 2023, 15:36 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Even if the object, person and events seen in a dream seem real at the
>> > time, on waking up it is known that they are not real. Vedanta takes
>> this
>> > experience as an example and concludes that the samsara/bandha
>> experienced
>> > in the waking is not real.
>> >
>> > In the Bhagavatam and Brahmasutras, Veda Vyasa has called dream as
>> Mayika,
>> > illusory. The meaning of 'maayaa' as God's will, Ishwarecchaa, does not
>> > hold good here.
>> >
>> > Dream creation is by the jiva - Srimad Bhagavatam
>> >
>> > In this chapter of the Bhagavata, as an analogy for the Supreme Lord
>> > creating the world and entering into it, is said to be akin to the
>> creation
>> > of the Jiva creating the dream by his mind out of his Avidya shakti:
>> >
>> > श्रीमद्भागवतपुराणम्/स्कन्धः १०/उत्तरार्धः/अध्यायः ८६
>> > https://sa.wikisource.org/s/v4e
>> >
>> > श्रुतदेव उवाच -
>> > नाद्य नो दर्शनं प्राप्तः परं परमपूरुषः ।
>> > यर्हीदं शक्तिभिः सृष्ट्वा प्रविष्टो ह्यात्मसत्तया ॥ ४४ ॥
>> > यथा शयानः पुरुषो मनसैवात्ममायया ।
>> > सृष्ट्वा लोकं परं स्वाप्नं अनुविश्यावभासते ॥ ४५ ॥
>> >
>> > Just as a sleeping man appears to have created the world with his own
>> > illusion (ignorance) and entered it, so the Supreme Lord dwells as if he
>> > has created this world with his magical power and entered it. From this
>> > illustration, the Srimad Bhagavatam reveals that the creation of the
>> world
>> > and the entry of the Supreme Being into it is also illusory and not
>> real.
>> >
>> > This premise is accepted only in Advaita alone.
>> >
>> > The Brahmasutra also says the same:
>> >
>> > मायामात्रं तु कार्त्स्न्येनानभिव्यक्तस्वरूपत्वात् ॥ ३ ॥ 3.2.3
>> >
>> > Shankara's commentary for the fact that the creation in a dream is
>> > illusory; not real:
>> >
>> > तुशब्दः पक्षं व्यावर्तयति । नैतदस्ति — यदुक्तम् , सन्ध्ये सृष्टिः
>> > पारमार्थिकीति ; मायैव सन्ध्ये सृष्टिः, न परमार्थगन्धोऽप्यस्ति ।
>> >
>> > सूचकश्च हि श्रुतेराचक्षते च तद्विदः ॥ ४ ॥ 3.2.4
>> >
>> > Upanishad and Shankara Bhasya passages on the creation of dream is by
>> the
>> > jiva himself:
>> >
>> > श्रुत्यन्तरे ‘स्वयं विहत्य स्वयं निर्माय स्वेन भासा स्वेन ज्योतिषा
>> > प्रस्वपिति’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ३ । ९) इति जीवव्यापारश्रवणात् । इहापि ‘य एष
>> > सुप्तेषु जागर्ति’ (क. उ. २ । २ । ८) इति प्रसिद्धानुवादाज्जीव एवायं
>> कामानां
>> > निर्माता सङ्कीर्त्यते । तस्य तु वाक्यशेषेण ‘तदेव शुक्रं तद्ब्रह्म’ इति
>> > जीवभावं व्यावर्त्य ब्रह्मभाव उपदिश्यते — ‘तत्त्वमसि’ (छा. उ. ६ । ९ । ४)
>> > इत्यादिवत् — इति न ब्रह्मप्रकरणं विरुध्यते ।
>> > Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: 4.3.9:
>> >
>> > स्वयं विहत्य स्वयं निर्माय स्वेन भासा स्वेन ज्योतिषा प्रस्वपित्यत्रायं
>> > पुरुषः स्वयं ज्योतिर्भवति ॥ ९ ॥
>> > Dhruva says:
>> >
>> > श्रीमद्भागवतपुराणम्/स्कन्धः ४/अध्यायः १२
>> > https://sa.wikisource.org/s/aw4
>> >
>> > मन्यमान इदं विश्वं मायारचितमात्मनि ।
>> > अविद्यारचितस्वप्नगन्धर्वनगरोपमम् ॥ १५ ॥
>> >
>> > Dhruva realizes that this world is imagined in him by the Maya power of
>> > Ishwara. He gives an illustration for this: Just as a dream, Gandharva
>> > nagara (a phantom city) is created by ignorance, so the world is
>> created by
>> > the maya power of Ishwara.
>> > From this statement we know incidentally: The dream-creation is by the
>> > jiva, endowed with avidya.
>> >
>> > Even in the Garuda Purana, Veda Vyasa elaborately says that dream is
>> > illusory and unreal, the waking world is also the same. For this the
>> > Brihadaranyaka Upanishad gives the well-known illustration 'Chariot,
>> horse,
>> > road - all imagined in a dream':
>> >
>> > यथा रथादयः स्वप्ने सन्तो नैव च सत्यतः ॥ १,२३६.३६ ॥
>> > तथा जाग्रदवस्थायां भूतानि न तु सन्निधौ ।
>> >
>> > Chariots, etc. seen in dreams are not real. Thus the objects of
>> > consciousness are not real ones. (Bru. Upa. न तत्र रथा, न रथयोगा, न
>> पन्थानो
>> > भवन्त्यथ रथानरथयोगानप्तः सृजते ..the Advaita meaning of this famous
>> mantra
>> > can be seen here in this Puranic verse.)
>> >
>> > द्वैरूप्यं मायया याति जाग्रत्स्वप्नपदज्ञ (क्ष) योः ॥ १,२३६.३७ ॥
>> >
>> > Objects take different forms in waking and dream (vasanamaya).
>> >
>> > एवमेतत्परं ब्रह्म स्वप्नजाग्रत्पदद्वये ।
>> > सुषुप्तमचलं रूपमद्वयं पदमुच्यते ॥ १,२३६.३८ ॥
>> >
>> > Similarly, Para Brahman takes different forms in the waking state.
>> >
>> > मायाविचारसिद्धैव विचारेण विलीयते ।
>> > आपातरहिता सापि कल्पनाकालवर्तिनी ॥ १,२३६.३९ ॥
>> >
>> > We believe things to be real without questioning that they are made of
>> > maya. By reflection it is evident that they are false: vicharena
>> viparyeti.
>> > They exist only in our imagination.
>> >
>> > In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Yashoda marvels at the sight of the entire
>> > universe in the child Krishna's mouth and muses:
>> >
>> > ŚB 10.8.40
>> > किं स्वप्न एतदुत देवमाया
>> > किं वा मदीयो बत बुद्धिमोह: ।
>> > अथो अमुष्यैव ममार्भकस्य
>> > य: कश्चनौत्पत्तिक आत्मयोग: ॥ ४० ॥
>> >
>> > 'Is it a dream, God's Maayaa or my own imagination?' From this too we
>> know
>> > that dreams are not real. Because as an analogy for impossible
>> happenings
>> > in the world we say 'What, are you dreaming ?' There is very popular.
>> >
>> > The Upanishads themselves call the three states including sleep as the
>> > 'three dreams':
>> > Aitareya Upanishad:
>> >
>> > 1.3.12 त्रय आवसथाः त्रयः स्वप्नाः
>> >
>> > Thus in many places the Upanishads and the Puranas say that dreams are
>> not
>> > real and by that example, the waking world is also not real.
>> >
>> > A short video in Kannada by the Puthige Mutt (Madhwa) Seer on dreams:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kVxgL_63KUuGMpMHJrWaEpM5d88hCNVS/view?usp=sharing
>> >
>> > Om
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