[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: pratiyogI-jnAna being mandatory for abhAva-jnAna
Sudhanshu Shekhar
sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com
Thu Aug 1 09:43:51 EDT 2024
*Namaste Michael ji.*
//But Bhasyakara does not speak of any positive entity being perceived in a
place now characterized by its absence. There ever only was the substratum,
rope, and there never was a snake to be known as absent. Pratiyogin simply
does not apply! The snake is totally non-existent.//
A person who mistakes rope for snake makes two statements:
(a) There is a dangerous snake there. [during illusion]
(b) There has never been a snake here. There was always a rope here.
[during bAdha]
During bAdha, he makes a statement – there has never been a snake here.
That means, there has always been a snake-abhAva here. That means, there
has always been an abhAva here whose pratiyogI is snake. So, the concept of
pratiyogI very much applies. That which appeared during illusion, that very
snake is the object of negation.
That the snake is totally non-existent is a valid point. But still, it is
not horns of hare. Because, horns of hare is ineligible to appear whereas
illusory snake is eligible to appear.
Further, snake is not identical to rope. If it were identical to rope, then
you cannot say – there has never been a snake here. Because that would
amount to – there has never been a rope here.
So, some difference between snake and rope is to be assumed. That is why
advaita says – rope-avachchhinna-chaitanya is substratum and snake is a
modification of ignorance-of-rope-avachchhinna-chaitanya.
Mere rope does not and cannot appear as snake. So,
(rope-avachchhinna-chaitanya + ajnAna thereof) gives rise to illusory snake
which is negated by jnAna of rope-avachchhinna-chaitanya.
//There is not some positive ignorance that has been canceled to reveal
the rope. All that Vedanta teaches is the supplanting of an erroneous
knowledge by the discernment of right knowledge. All the rest is the
logician's wrangling.//
Let us discuss it in another thread. I have already referred you to
Brihadaranyak wherein BhagvatpAda has said that abhAva is bhAvarUpa. He has
given irrefutable logic there. So, if you hold that "avidyA is abhAva and
hence not bhAvarUpa", you stand contradicted by Shankara because He proved
that abhAva is bhAvarUpa. Either you explain Shankara (in separate thread)
or accept that avidyA is bhAvarUpa. Without doing that, merely repeating
something is not a valid argument.
//The consequences of alternatively taking some positive bhavarupa avidya
as the cause accounting for the manifestation of the world of appearance
must then also account for the destruction of that world of appearance
along with cancelation its cause, positive ignorance, supposedly by
knowledge.//
BhAvarUpa means neither bhAva nor abhAva. It implies that avidyA is neither
sat nor asat nor prAk-abhAva, pradhvansa-abhAva, atyanta-abhAva,
anyonya-abhAva nor any of the bhAvAtmaka-avidyA-kArya. So, please note that
translating bhAvarUpa to positive is incorrect and the intent is to
emphasise abhAva-vilakshaNa. But then, bhAvarUpa does not imply bhAva. It
is bhAva-abhAva-vilakshaNa.
The manifestation and "destruction" world is just as it is in the case of
rope-snake. So, we have a perfect analogy there.
Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 7:14 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sirs, Pranam.
>
> I am confounded by all the discussion of pratiyogin. If we speak of the
> absence of some empirical object, then the notion of its prior existence or
> pratiyogin is clear. So too with the invent of an imaginary *positive*
> notion such as hare's horn or ‘gaagaabuubu’ But Bhasyakara does not speak
> of any positive entity being perceived in a place now characterized by its
> absence. There ever only was the substratum, rope, and there never was a
> snake to be known as absent. Pratiyogin simply does not apply! The snake
> is totally non-existent. There is not some positive ignorance that has
> been canceled to reveal the rope. All that Vedanta teaches is the
> supplanting of an erroneous knowledge by the discernment of right
> knowledge. All the rest is the logician's wrangling
>
> The consequences of alternatively taking some positive bhavarupa avidya as
> the cause accounting for the manifestation of the world of appearance must
> then also account for the destruction of that world of appearance along
> with cancelation its cause, positive ignorance, supposedly by knowledge.
>
> Please advise where my understanding misses the point.
> Kind regards to all, mcc
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 2:48 PM putran M <putranm4 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaskaram,
>>
>> Does this example apply here? To know "this is fire, this is not water",
>> I would have to know "fire" and that "fire" is not water (or that "water"
>> refers to something else, whether existing or not). I do not have to know
>> water is wet, transparent etc. I do have a negative knowledge about water -
>> that it is not another name for the fire that I know; but I don't think
>> that is same as saying "I know water".
>>
>> thollmelukaalkizhu
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 8:28 AM 'Kuntimaddi Sadananda' via advaitin <
>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Venkatraghavanji - PraNAms.
>>>
>>> You made an interesting statement. To make a statement related to harn's
>>> hare. One should have knowledge that Hares do not have horns, and for that,
>>> one should have the knowledge of what is a horn too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can I just say hare's do not have 'gaagaabuubu' without knowing what is
>>> that 'gaagaabuubu'? -I am reminded of the statement –
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Existence of an objects is established by the knowledge its existence'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Conversely 'Nonexistence of an object must also have the knowledge of
>>> existence of it elsewhere'. I should know what ‘gaagaabuubu’ is before I
>>> can deny its non-existence at some other place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my 2c
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hari Om!
>>>
>>> Sada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 12:10:45 AM EDT, Venkatraghavan S <
>>> agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste Sudhanshu ji,
>>> The cognition that the hare's horn does not exist does not require the
>>> prior knowledge of the hare's horn.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 6:54 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hari Om,
>>>
>>> It is accepted in advaita-vedAnta that prior pratiyogI-jnAna is a
>>> prerequisite for abhAva-jnAna. Unless and until one has x-jnAna, one
>>> cannot
>>> have x-abhAva-jnAna.
>>>
>>> My question is -- is there any branch of Indian Philosophy, dvaita,
>>> vishishTAdvaita, nyAya etc who dispute this premise and hold that one can
>>> have abhAva-jnAna without pratiyogI-jnAna.
>>>
>>> Learned members may please guide.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>> Sudhanshu Shekhar.
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