[Advaita-l] [advaitin] SSSS on the controversy between mulav7idya and abhavarupa - directly and simply explained as per SSSS

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Chandramouliji,
Yes, he has said adhyAsa originates from ajnAna. I shared the text a couple
of mails ago, but here it is again -  न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते.

Don't tell me he differentiates avidyA and ajnAna!

Regards,
Venkatraghavan


On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:57 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> I have not read Hacker. Hence I did not comment directly on his statement.
>
> Reg // Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in
> the kleshApahAriNi //,
>
> Where exactly has he said this. Probably he has said adhyAsa originates
> from ajnAna ?
>
> Regards
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:11 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>> Doesn't Sri SSS admit that there is an avidyA that is the cause of
>> adhyAsa in the kleshApahAriNi whereas he holds that avidyA and adhyAsa are
>> identical in the mUlAvidyA nirAsah quote provided by Hacker? Is Hacker's
>> understanding of Sri SSS' position wrong ?
>>
>> See below - in what sense did Sri SSS mean this:
>> mitho viruddha svabhAvayor Atma anAtmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti avidyeti.
>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>
>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>
>> With respect to this:
>> // Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>> for a moment conceded to exist //.
>>
>> Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in the
>> kleshApahAriNi.
>>
>> If Sri SSS is willing to accept that there is no harm to advaita due to
>> adhyAsa, why is there harm to advaita if there is an adhyasta avidyA -
>> because that is what we are talking about.
>>
>> The avidyA we are talking of is adhyasta, so it is subject to adhyAsa. He
>> himself concedes that adhyAsa originates from avidyA, which in our
>> conception is adhyasta - so adhyAsa (of mind ego etc) does originate from
>> adhyAsa of ignorance only. What is the problem?
>>
>> There is no second anadhyasta entity for him to worry about. Whether
>> avidyA is abhAvarUpa or adhyasta, there is no harm to advaita.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:15 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>
>>> I don’t think Sri SSS takes any different position in KleshpahAriNi. His
>>> objection is for considering avidyA as kAraNa for adhyAsa. His position is
>>> that any bhAvarUpa avidyA, any such **positive** entity, as kAraNa for
>>> adhyAsa takes it outside the purview of adhyAsa. And this is advaitahAni.
>>> This is what is stated in the quote cited by Sudhanshu Ji
>>>
>>> // *Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>>> for a moment conceded to exist //.*
>>>
>>> This is his consistent refrain in VPP. He brings out that this objection
>>> is valid in respect of practically all the commentaries like PanchapAdika,
>>> VivaraNa, Ishta Siddhi, Bhamati etc. In an earlier private discussion with
>>> an acknowledged authority on SSS works, who was very closely associated
>>> with the KAryAlaya as well, I had pointed out that this is practically his
>>> only objection highlighted in VPP against all the commentaries, and that we
>>> could concentrate on resolving this issue. He had discussed this with
>>> others as well and agreed with me that we could just pursue this one issue
>>> further. Unfortunately the discussions could not be taken beyond a certain
>>> point to a logical conclusion as it was felt that face to face discussions
>>> were needed.
>>>
>>> I have tried several times to locate this in VPP, because the original
>>> Sanskrit version needs to be cited for any meaningful debate. But somehow
>>> it has been eluding me.
>>>
>>> I feel any headway is possible only if this one issue is resolved. Other
>>> issues are really secondary to this.
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 9:36 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>> Yes you are right. I had misunderstood Sri SSS' position.
>>>>
>>>> Sri Sudhanshu pointed me to the line in the kleshApahAriNi where Sri SSS
>>>> says - न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन
>>>> तदतिरेकेण
>>>> मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः स्यात्।
>>>>
>>>> So he seems to agree that there is a mithyAjnAna different to ajnAna and
>>>> without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna cannot rise - but, presumably, he does not
>>>> wish
>>>> to go on to say ajnAna is the material cause of such a mithyAjnAna.
>>>>
>>>> However, this position that there is an avidyA different to mithyA jnAna
>>>> does appear to contradict his position from the mUlAvidyA nirAsah
>>>> quoted by
>>>> Hacker: -
>>>>
>>>> mitho viruddha svyabhavayor Atma anatmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>> avidyeti.
>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>
>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>
>>>> In the kleshApahAriNi, he takes the opposite position.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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